Tutoring for St Paul's and CLSB school Admissions

[30062015]

I’m a regular on mn but have name changed for this.
Ds very bright , sporty and I am hoping he will sit exams for St. Paul’s, and CLSB and maybe one other. I know they are both very difficult to get into and we would also be applying for bursary: / scholarship.
There are a few children his class also applying for these schools - however they are being tutored since yr4 - in class my son is top ability groups and in tests will get usually 80-90% for English and 90_100% for maths. Similar to to these. I know that tutoring can make. Difference - I help my son using bond books at home- but I couldn’t afford a tutor.
Do you think I am setting him up to fail and that the already clever children being tutored will have an advantage - his teacher says he won’t be disadvantaged if I am doing bond books at home . I am thinking that they will all get a place in a school and he wouldn’t. As my help obviously wouldn’t be as good as tutor. Our local state school is gradually failing and I know he wouldn’t be happy there but that is his realistic only other option -

Kingscote- can I ask if the top children in your school who are selected for St P are the ones who are tutored?

It varies. They have all had very academic / focused parents, who always did a lot in addition to the curriculum - visiting museums and galleries, trying out Science experiments, reading books set in the historical periods the children were studying.

I don't think any of them actually had a tutor, but I'm sure that their parents had done a lot of research about what would be in each different school's exam and prepared for them. So I guess they were 'tutored', but by mum or dad.

They were also using meal times as an opportunity to chat about stuff in the news and more open ended discussions - 'What super power would you pick and why?' 'Should we care about what other people think?' - anything to give their boys the confidence to share their views and think on their feet.

Talking about Latymer, from my current experience, art, drama and music seem to have a higher profile/gain more kudos than sports. I know a couple of mums with year 9 boys who feel that playing in 3 ensembles, performing in plays + musicals and spending a lot of time in the art department may be getting in the way of their DS's academic work!

OP - I would say there is less if a "sporting culture" at Latymer Upper than somewhere like St Paul's. Sure it's there if you want it (rowing is particularly strong), but it's also quite easy to opt out of the traditional sports. Boys schools tend to have a more sports-determined "social order". This is not the case at Latymer.

There are boys and girls who turned down St Paul's, Westminster, SPGS and are at LU because they prefer a co-ed environment. These pupils are not particularly "stand out" academically. In terms of academic results you are really splitting hairs once you get to a certain point as a bright child will do equally well in either school. I think at LU last year, they achieved 100% A* in Maths (that's 180 pupils). They have their own GCSE accredited course called "World Perspectives" which teaches concepts in ideology, politics and economics which they wouldn't normally encounter until A-level. It's a very forward-thinking school, though maybe not suited to a more introverted pupil.

Also, as I understand it, for St Paul's at 11 plus, there are only 10- 20 places? (please correct me if this has changed). Most boys coming from state schools do the 10 plus for a deferred place (maybe 10 places available) the 11 plus is more geared towards preps that finish in year 6. Again, this might have changed in recent years? In any case, the main entry point to St Paul's is 13 plus.

Does the school your DS is currently at have any experience in preparing boys for 11 plus and are they guiding you in any way as to the process?

SPJS takes 30 boys in Year 7. Last year, 20 were from state primaries, 10 from prep schools that finished at Year 6.

There is also an opportunity for state primary boys to take the entrance test in January of Year 5, with the place being deferred until Year 7.

I honestly don't think you have to be super gifted to get into City Boys (I don't know anything about St Paul's). Or even gifted. Every year one or two boys from my children's (requires improvement) primary try for City and every year one or two boys get in. I think it's about a 50% success rate.

My own son was one of them. He was top table but not top of the top table. He is bright but nothing extraordinary. He was tutored for an hour a week for a year and a half. I don't know if this is considered 'intensive' or not. I would also say that there's a big difference between the work they do in state primaries now and what he was doing a few years back, ie the gap between the 11+ exams and Sats has narrowed (for good or ill).

Vashna - thank you - we will definitely try LU - our school is state and doesn’t prepare pupils - although I hear some of the children are tutored by the teachers - I don’t know which teachers and can’t say if it is aligned with school entrance exams or not.

OP - if you get an application pack for LU they will send you sample papers for Maths and English. Familiarisation with the format and types of questions is important as they are quite different to SATS. Also entrance exams vary widely - e.g. LU don't have a separate VR / NVR paper anymore, St Paul's may still have this.

If you were at a prep they would recommend you go for one or two "hopeful" options and one or two "back ups" (hate to use that term, but you know what I mean).
If you are going for a bursary place, you need to find out which schools are likely to be the best possibilities. I mentioned LU because it has a good track record in this as part of its ethos.

Have you also considered Hampton which has a large 11 plus intake? It may seem out of area, but the coach service is very extensive (shared with LEH). Similar to LU in terms of academics.

Try and get some sample papers for these kinds of schools - even any if the girls schools like G&L, SPGS. I think KCS has samples in its website.

Thank you Vashna - i will do that - is there a way to find out which schools run transport buses through Nottinghill - Kensington or Hammersmith or would I have to find out from individual schools?

Again though, (very) selective private schools, unlike grammars, are not looking simply at those who achieve the highest mark. So, as with any exam, you need to check that he has covered the material and make sure he has, and give him enough practice that he gets the timing right, but too much more than that can be counter productive.

Schools are interested as much in what kids can contribute to the school as much as what they offer the child. So some will gain places because of their sheer academic horse-power. But there will also be places for children who are good enough, but who also contribute to school plays, choirs, orchestras, sports teams, leadership etc. Schools will see education as something much wider than exam grades, and the schools you are talking about really don't need to buy in grades. The same will be true, perhaps more so, with bursary candidates, who hopefully contribute social or economic diversity as well as engagement in the wider life of the school.

A statement on the lines of "he really loves sport and is good at it so I wondered if he may sway toward sports at the expense of his academic potential" might cause concern. There is a noticeable "my child first" minority in some schools, which I suspect schools find frustrating. The founding principles of some of the schools mentioned are often more about education bringing responsibility. I suspect that at some point a child gains less from tutoring and more from spending their time reading, playing sport, hanging out with friends or doing things with their family. Academic intelligence is one thing, but emotional intelligence is what will see a child through the educational long haul.

Thanks needmoresleep - that is a lot of helpful info -
However from the research I have done it looks like the application process does not look at other qualities or achievements or unless you score highly in the academic exam. So for example ds is top group State school but not the brightest- but he is also enjoys and takes part in weekly music and sport because he really enjoys it - and has take. Part in fixtures and concerts but doesn’t have certificates to prove this but would get a very good reference from any of his extra curricular coaches / teachers - Now unless he passes the exam highly to the next stage - they wouldn’t know anything of this. So my point is although they are looking for children with a broad range of interests, passion and curiosity - The exam score comes first so it is still be those with the highest marks who also happen to have the confidence and resilience etc. Anyway I find the whole thing a bit stressful and minefield so I feel blessed to have Mumsnetters on hand- thanks

OP - the thing that is very important to the application will be the head's reference. At LU (and Hampton) they are very aware that it is not really in the remit of state primary heads to have to write references for indie schools - so they take this into account. For instance, st some state primaries, you have to pay a fee for the head to write the reference!

The reason I mention Latymer to you is that it has a high state intake at 11 plus and a strong bursary ethos. However, they tend to want more than straightforward academics. There are a few "bookish" introverted types there, but they are very much in the minority. They seem to like children who demonstrate confidence and a wide range of interests. There are some seriously talented musicians, artists - you name it. Debating is huge, they are encouraged to question and think outside the box, they really are. They say that the interview is to find children that seem to have some kind of spark, whatever the spark may be.
In the exam, there will be some very high "outlier" scorers yes, but out of the 450 who get interviews, many of their scores will be pretty much in the same ballpark. This is where the personality and the wider interests come into it. So you may well have slightly "lower scoring" applicants being offered places over higher scoring ones - e.g. if they come across as more articulate or have something else to offer.

I'm sure Hampton has a coach from the Hammersmith area - definitely from Chiswick. If it's not on the website, the reception will tell you.

It's not true about "first pass the post" re exam scores.
Sure, they will have a mark which anyone scoring below won't be looked at further, but after that a whole tranche of factors come into play.

I agree that Indie schools know that State school kids won't necessarily have the polished references that Prep school Heads write. They also know that they might have covered limited languages etc.

In the end, the key thing they want is academic ability. There will be a level below which they just won't accept, even if someone is great at music or some other aspect. They may well have far more applying who meet their minimum academic standard, so then they will choose who to offer to, based mostly on entrance exam results, but also taking into account the other stuff a child can offer. So not having lots of grades on musical instruments will mean you don't get a music scholarship, but being involved with music and other extra curricular activities at or outside primary school will bode well and suggest a well-rounded child who is keen to get involved - that is what schools are looking for, along with academic ability.

And I would say few candidates have only the preparation done by their schools. Even those in Preps have parents who are prepping them by doing Bond Books or using other resources, plus widening their knowledge with trips and visits etc, or using tutors to do the Prep.

There will be the occasional state school child who gets into these top schools without parental or tutor involvement. They will be the exceptional truly truly bright one, whose ability just shines through. However this is rare and actually bearing in mind the level of parental interest needed to apply for these schools, a lack of parental involvement in either providing tutors or prepping themselves, is very unusual. An interested parent who has the ability to understand the application system and the willingness and ability to access materials and plan a prep campaign can prep as well as a tutor. I would say though that some prep from one source or another is definitely needed.

Thank you everyone -
Vashna - we will definitely try Latymer -

For what it's worth, our son was at a state primary. He got a deferred place to StP in year 5 and a place at CLB in year 6.

We did very little tutoring, 10 sessions on exam technique as the school didn't do that. The national curriculum is all that was needed. Just make sure he does his homework and reads lots. Do some extra curricular stuff and most importantly, don't stress about the process or the tests. Just do a bunch of test papers.

Good luck.

Thanks MN - could you tell me who you used for exam technique. The results for 10 and 11plus are coming through And the children from state schools getting places seem to be the ones who have had tutors!