CATs score in top schools

[ramennoddles]

What kind of scores would be expected at a highly selective school? Do CATs truly show potential? Why does the 11+ use reasoning?

For any lurkers revisiting this thread for 2022 entry, I believe there is an overemphasis placed on the role of CAT scores over other data points. Clearly in this disrupted 2021 entry, ISEB results were used by many selective schools as the key ‘exam’ datapoint backed up by academic interview. There has been much debate here on correlating CAT/Atom/ ISEB scores. Mine is merely a ‘sample of 1’ but if it helps any parent not to catastrophise their kids’ CAT scores and have confidence - my son had a very spiky profile (118 maths, 123 English 125 verbal 128 non verbal). He has received offers from Hampton, KGS and 2 other selectives, waitlisted for SPG and a straight no from LU. Don’t write your DS or DD off if they have CATs under 120. If they have an engaging personality and are curious this means far more to the school. Good luck!

@LibbyGray really appreciate your sample of one. Great information and congratulations to your DS on all those offers. Perhaps he did very well in the ISEB? Do you find out the scores they got in the end.

Also, his profile doesn't sound too spiky, my DS (lower year group than yours) has a profile that's got 37 points between the highest and lowest in his CAT score... Very spikey :(

Can I ask, did Atom or any other practice help improve his scores at all? Or did everything remain pretty much consistent?

We have some work to do to raise DS's scores a bit at least, esp in the weakest area.

As for Harvard admissions, black students are accepted with much lower SAT scores than white and Asian students. It’s been the subject of lawsuits. In general, elite American colleges admit many persons of color who can’t keep up with the big dogs academically. They tend to major in softer subjects. The mismatch for medical and law schools is even worse.

@NeverAgain2021 you don’t find out their ISEB scores but I knew he had done alright when he got asked back for interview at SPJ. That’s the weird thing - offer at Hampton, no offer LU... similar level school?! If you are prepping for 2022 entry then it’s all about the timing of practice. Go too soon with Atom and your child will get bored and lose interest. My DD got to hate Atom practice and it bored him rigid. 3 months from Sept should do it. I’m sure Atom helped his overall confidence with online exams, but I hear crazy stories of kids being prepped 12 months out and I just can’t see an advantage in that. Much better to read a book and expand horizons that way. My son is generally quite curious, and my experience has been that whilst ISEB was a ‘ticket to play’ this year, the interview was far more important to cement any opinion they had of your child. Neveragain21 implies you’re all done... is that not the case?! In theory you can’t raise your CAT scores as they are supposed to reflect future potential. That said, Bute house head this year got the girls all resitting their Yr6 CATs so she just have thought they could improve with practice?!! Good luck

@LibbyGray your child’s profile isn’t spiky at all and an average of 123.5 is exactly the kind of average predicted to gain admission to those types of selective schools assuming nerves don’t get the best of the child on exam day and it’s a good personality fit.

Congratulations on all your offers and best of luck deciding which to pick.

@Ericaequites

" In general, elite American colleges admit many persons of color who can’t keep up with the big dogs academically."

Asians, for example Indians and Chinese, are most definitely people of colour and US College admissions teams don't do them any favours, or favors, as they would write.

All this IQ and race stuff is rather silly. Some time ago, the mean Irish IQ was around 80. It's around 100 now. The racist fools of the day used to argue the Irish were somehow inferior to the English!

IQ, even though it is a relative measure, is most definitely something than can increase, both for groups and individuals and is clearly culturally specific. If a New Guinean tribesman were to set his version of an IQ test, I doubt many of us would survive the experience.

Am surprised to hear all this talk about prepping for CATS...they are supposed to reflect ability / potential, and not meant to be prepared for. Our daughter certainly never encountered a cats type question, until she sat the actual tests. From year 3 to year 6, and all were consistently very high. She is extremely logical, and can work out patterns and spot links between things...very quickly. That’s what these tests are analysing, not how well a child has been prepped?! A friend took that approach with both her children, desperate to get them into good schools. And although their scores increased ‘slightly’..they were still never stellar. More mid teens average at a very hard push.
@LibbyGray - the current CATS comprise VR, NVR, spatial & maths....it doesn’t have an English battery as such. But either way, an ‘unprepared‘ average over 121 is good, and is generally considered the benchmark required for our local grammar. Which incidentally isn’t super-selective, but supposed to reflect top 1/3, although a lot of kids don’t make that CATS average, but pass the 11plus...because they have been heavily tutored.

@Schoolmummmy Just checked DSs Yr 5 CAT scores (I was doing it from memory) and you’re right the 123 score was for spacial. My point stands - and this was intended for panicky parents looking at this thread in future months - don’t worry about your kids scores too much as the schools will be able to spot natural ability if they can pass the first gate of ISEB. My son had no tutoring - in fact we came back from abroad during covid-19 - but with a couple of months prep on Atom he managed to pick up sufficiently to get offers from 1 super selective and 3 selectives. The Heads must think they are able to influence ‘natural ability’ shown by the CAT scores in some way, otherwise I don’t see why the head of Bute House (feeder for SPGS) would retest the girls in her 11+ cohort as they didn’t get the ‘right’ result first time?! In some prep schools they do ATOM practice ad nauseum so this does counter the ‘natural ability’ point somewhat. Over-tutoring sucks and drains the life out of the poor kids - but a bit of prep via exampapersplus (they have online Pretest papers you can buy) or ATOM (same sort of platform used by ISEB) will give them confidence and set them up for success. Some bright state school kids are missing out because they don’t get ‘the system’. I am only trying to help even the playing field and dispel the myth that any scores under 120 won’t lead to success. Good luck those embarking on the journey (I have no affiliation with either provider btw) x

Bute house head this year got the girls all resitting their Yr6 CATs so she just have thought they could improve with practice?!!

Or that they're only going to report the second score if it's higher than the first.

The standard error of measurement of any one of the four component tests is 5 points. The SEM of the average of the four components is 3 points. That means that if a "truly average" child were able to take the test 20 times, you would expect them to record a 105 or higher average score one time and 95 or lower one time, so a 10 point spread between a good day and a bad day. Who knows how the very selective schools regard the difference between, say, a reported 117 average score and a 127.

@user149799568 - yes good point re the SEM on average, and that’s certainly something that some schools are more wary of. I know my daughter’s school were requested to provide consecutive year by year data on CATs, and her average across the 4 batteries ranged from 137 to 140. For 11plus county appeal however, I know from others, that they simply chose the best scores...or not at all, if there were none that added positive reflection! I’m sure there is a lot of manipulation on data with some schools, after all it’s in their best interests to secure a place for their students...but perhaps not always the right place for the child.

Interested in this thread as my son has always scored low in spatial (105 ish) compared to the others which are 120+. This is based on his scores in year 5 and 6.
This drags his overall average down but I can’t understand what they’re trying to test with spatial. Is it very different from NVR? Do schools look at this score or are they more interested in the other 3 (as our head alluded)?
And what does a low spatial score in relation to the others say about him - does it reflect some kind of learning difficulty in one area?

Well we’ve learned the hard way that CAT scores and Atom scores do not necessarily mean success with the super selective. My son’s Yr5 and Yr6 CATS averaged 136. His Atom scores were 128-138. And yet he got flat no from SPS for 13+ and Habs for 11+ ... not even through to interview. He’s waitlisted for MTS (his ‘net’ school!!)
Fortunately he has an interview at Eton, which is our first choice in any case.
It’s been really hard to understand what happened! Clearly, despite having the intellectual horsepower, he is not suited to this system

@mammmamia Spatial reasoning tests mental rotation ability and understanding position, 3D space etc.

Strong spatial reasoning skills are required for advanced STEM and mathematics. Pilots and engineers are examples of people who have strong spatial reasoning skills. You can improve spatial reasoning skills more easily than other forms of intelligence through training and practice.

@stooshmum - My understanding is that HABS select for interview, on the basis of their own initial assessment - which comprises a combination of written English, reasoning tests etc. I know a child currently there, who averaged high 120s on CATS, so presumably also did well on the HABS assessments. Another child in that same year, with similar scores...didn’t get to interview either. They know what they are looking for in those assessments, and although certainly not suggesting that this is the case with your child, they are good at spotting ‘raw’ ability..as opposed to children tutored to test. There’s a huge difference. Our daughter has never been a big reader, loathes writing..but is a natural at maths. So we were really surprised when she was offered a scholarship on the basis of high performance on ALL her papers. It turns out her English performance was so far from the usual ‘prepped polish’ that they often see, her raw ability simply shone through. Every school will have its own feelers on this, I’m sure your son will find his perfect place.

@Schoolmummmy thank you for the encouragement. But my point was that raw talent doesn’t always win. I believe CAT scores are all about raw talent, and my son has always done well in them. But they don’t always indicate success at school entrance exams.

However, we did not tutor to test.

My son started using Atom during the October half term, so not for very long.

Sadly, I think being naturally ‘bright’ isn’t always enough if the children don’t suit the examinations.

[quote stooshmum]@Schoolmummmy thank you for the encouragement. But my point was that raw talent doesn’t always win. I believe CAT scores are all about raw talent, and my son has always done well in them. But they don’t always indicate success at school entrance exams.

However, we did not tutor to test.

My son started using Atom during the October half term, so not for very long.

Sadly, I think being naturally ‘bright’ isn’t always enough if the children don’t suit the examinations.[/quote]
I would agree with this - you only have to look at some of the posts on the girls' and boys' 11+ threads here to see that ISEB was the downfall of some children, for example. Different exam styles will inevitably suit different children.

We were lucky in that our DS seemed well suited to that kind of assessment and has achieved offers at both the selectives we applied to (Hampton & RGS). We'll never know now whether he'd have been successful based on the original exams, of course, but ISEB clearly suited him well. But there were definitely others on the threads who found that a bad ISEB day - or even just a lower score in one of the four areas - meant that a DC with high CATs or ATOM scores didn't make the grade for an offer.

I would also say, based on the experience of one of the SW London boys' thread posters - beware of prep school heads who over-sell a DC's promise based on CAT scores alone. In their case the prep head had very much led them to believe that their DS would be a shoe-in for a Hampton scholarship because his CAT scores were so high, but in reality he has ended up on the waitlist and is distraught because he was more or less led to believe that a scholarship was his for the taking. Definitely a point worth considering for any future lurkers.

CAT scores might be an indicator of raw ability but they are not a guarantee of anything.

@FlyingPandas - yes absolutely, high CATS alone are not a comprehensive guarantee of anything. Which is why most schools rely on a range of assessments, not just reasoning. It certainly wouldn’t have guaranteed my child her place or her scholarship. By assessing other aspects, such as free writing, careful assessment of comprehension skills, or application of science knowledge in some schools - all help build a better picture of that child’s suitability for that particular school. For instance, the clincher on a science paper for our daughter, was the fact they didn’t just question learned knowledge by way of simple fact recall. They posed questions that tested ability to predict outcomes, as well as a really unusual question on embryos, which was quite advanced for a 10 year old, and looked to identify those children that could make a reasoned connection on what had been posed, and discuss why. Another school’s scholarship process, included an essay question on a well known historical figure...although some candidates had great factual recall than she had, she apparently analysed the question better, and gave a greater level of detailed answer. It really does depend on the school of course, but yes, CATS alone..are never the be all and end all.

Some hilarious stealth boasts on this thread. Actually I take that back. Nothing stealth about it!

@MrsWonderland - drawing references to our own experience, isn’t intended to be a stealth boast? In terms of children and their respective strengths & weaknesses, in CATS or otherwise..mine are all ends of the spectrum. But when talking about high CAT scores...it’s inevitable to reference the child with that experience. If it’s a post questioning whether low or average scores necessarily equate with failure..or mediocre performance..then I could also add plenty to that discussion too Every child is different...I think we all know that.

Which school has Science papers on an 11plus exam? Just interested as none do around us?
CAT scores always a bit of a mystery to me - state schools don’t do them so all the talk around them is irrelevant for so many children.
I’m always slightly grateful I never had a Prep school head telling me which schools we should apply to because they seem to get it wrong quite a lot reading through the threads.

I was reading this thread out if interest only as my son is in Y10 now. CAT scores can change quite significantly as can be seen by my son’s scores below.

Y4 Average:106 Verbal:107 Quant:126 Non-Verbal:106 Spatial:83

Y5 Average: 110 Verbal: 114 Quant: 126 Non-Verbal: 105 Spatial:94

Y6 Average: 127 Verbal: 134 Quant: 136 Non-Verbal: 124 Spatial: 114

The spiky profile is to be expected as he has autism. He wasn’t tutored but we did work through quite a lot of reasoning books. If Atom was around then, I hadn’t heard of it. Interestingly, the Y6 scores were much closer to ED Psych’s assessment made as part of his diagnosis.

ISEB pre-test didn’t go well for him and he didn’t get past the first round for the school we applied for that used it. Disappointing at the time, but it was probably for the best.

He is doing very well now - even in the science subjects he shouldn’t be able to do.

I believe CATs are done in many state primaries but not usually share with the parents. Y7 CATs quite common for target setting in state secondaries.

My DS used Atom for quite a while but not religiously nor hitting the weekly targets most weeks. It was useful as it is adaptive, that is to say that it would keep on providing more and more difficult questions. He managed to often get a high Atom score with still many incorrect, presumably because he hit those harder questions.

Yes, kids can be naturally bright but I doubt any kid without any prep would do very well in an ISEB or 11+ exam. Of course, if you've sent your child to a private especially prep school they will get lots of practice on these sort of tests. Still, many parents tutor on top.

If it helps, I would wager a guess that doing very well in English/VR is always a great help, especially with boys. Lots of kids do well in maths and with NVR you can probably reach your 'plateau' if you focus on it within 6-8 weeks (although little and often is probably better).

@2atschool state schools do Cats but they don’t share them with parents.

They are used by state schools for a number of purposes.

In theory, CATs are supposed to be used to identify misalignment of achievement with ability, specifically when a child is achieving below their ability; they're supposed to be a diagnostic to help a school determine which children to focus on. However, senior school admissions also use the scores in the opposite manner, to identify which children have achieved above their ability.

In terms of academics, the most selective schools' ideal candidates have high scores on the entrance exams and correspondingly high CATs. A child with a decent but not spectacular score on the entrance exam but lower CATs may be rejected as likely having been "over-tutored". A child with high CATs but a poor score on the entrance exam begs the question: why? The response will be different for a child who went to a deprived primary than for a child who went to a "top" primary.

[quote LondonGirl83]@2atschool state schools do Cats but they don’t share them with parents.

They are used by state schools for a number of purposes.[/quote]
Actually I think DS did do them in Year 4 and we did get some sort of generalised report but didn't with older DD.
But I don't think they were shared with the Secondary Schools we applied for, just whether they were meeting expectations, exceeding etc etc.
I just mean there seems to be an awful lot of focus on them when it comes to schools applied to in the Prep sector but pretty much zero when coming from a state primary.