Selective (grammar) secondaries may go back to allocating places to the brightest children from borough junior schools.

[Bubble99]

Hoorah!

Isn't this what selective schools are meant to be about? To give a chance to bright children whatever their background?

In our area selective schools are full of children who have been at private prep schools or children who have been privately tutored/kumon'd.

Bright children whose parents aren't 'in the loop' are missing out.

SP. No need to abolish selection. Just level the playing field so that children with natural ability whose parents don't have the means or knowledge of the system to push them into prepschools or tutoring stand a chance.

but why not just give the best education to all children? children whose parents can help with their homework are at a natural advantage whether or not they get paid tuition, plus what about late developers? what about bright dyslexics?

Yes, hatwoman, near Tiffin. There are major changes afoot with RUT schools admission policies. Including Tiffin boys and girls.

Good. I feel the same way about parents who pay for prep schools to get places in publicly funded selective secondaries as I do about the 'On Your Knees To Save The Fees' posse who use publicly funded faith schools that my child is not allowed to attend.

SP. Last year, in our area, there were 1270 boys applying for 120 places at our local selective boys secondary.

Anecdotal evidence has shown that the vast majority of these boys came from surrounding private prep schools.

Not fair, IMO. Children from state primaries should get hefty 'value added' marks at any entrance exams to allow them to get places.

If I understand correctly it's a good idea.

Our state grammar schools are getting more difficult to get into because they can now take pupils from wherever they like (rather than having any sort of catchment). So they take children from absolutely miles away and it's not really a 'local school for local children' iyswim.

So, I think I'm in favour.

with you there! I put dds on the list for our nearest - c of e - school, but was virtually laughed out of the office when I I answered "none" to the question about religion. I thought there might be a few points in honesty but apparently not...

There are 3 basic kinds of the test. The verbal reasoning tests are english-based and look for knowledge of application of language, starting off easy and getting very hard, so a good vocabulary and the skills to use it correctly, in context, is needed (e.g. 'Small is to tiny' as 'Big is to [choose correct word]') There are a series of different sections for each of the 3 tests, and you need to be able to understand and interpret the questions well, as one test might be asking the opposite to the next one (e.g. 'Small is to Big' as 'Tiny is to X'].

The numeracy one works in the same way, mostly looking at series of numbers and patterns; and the non-verbal one relies on the recognition of visual patterns - and this last test is something a child either 'gets' or doesn't - you can't really cram for this

'IMO if you opt out of the state system at primary level you should opt out for good. It is totally unfair that bright children from state primaries (larger class sizes etc) lose out on publicly funded grammar secondary education to those who can pay.'

I agree Bubble.

I think they've only actually changed to Teacher assesment at KS1 so far - the Y6 tests are certainly still going to be taking place next month and I suspect will be around for a while, but there are various ideas floating around about only testing a sample of pupils - article here

Other pupils would be assessed at each level when they are ready - so level 3 could be achieved at any time between say 7 and 11 in a primary school.

SP - dyslexic children tend to do very well in the non-verbal reasoning test. Big generalisation, I know but it's what we've found overall when looking at a range of factors in a child's attainment.

Also agree about faith schools. DOn't get me on to it!

GDG. Faith schools.

Imagine the outcry if local councils funded 'Christian only' swimming pools?

And someone will be along to bleat that the churches fund these schools. They don't. They often fund the set-up but not ongoing costs like salaries etc.

Bubble - I am totally on your wavelength.(Think I must have come across you before on another education thread). But I am intrigued as to how many of you seem to have selective schools - here in West Sussex there has been no selection for ages and I believe that is the case for most of the country. But what we do have is selection by the back door to the faith schools which is totally unfair on those of us with bright children but also with principles ie we won't be hypocrites by ''getting faith''.

Totally agree, bubble and idlemum (for swimming pools read hospitals, buses, trains...) But we have been here before, many times.

We don't have selection in S. Yorks either - only ways out are faith and private. Our grammar schools were abolished years ago by a rabid pinko council with several working-class chips on its shoulder - the foot-soldiers of Tony Crosland.

Sheffield is trying to make every secondary "specialist", probably under the misguided impression that this will distribute the middle-class kids more equally across the city.

I have read that it is the middle classes that are to blame for the demise of grammar schools. SOmething about too many working class kids getting in and not their own. Can't remember where I read that though

we have a selective grammar school near us but there are children (like my ds) who although they have high IQs, have specific learning difficulties (eg dyslexia) which means a) they would have difficulties with an exam like the 11 plus and b) would not be supported if they got there...

and even in my Grammar school days,(1907) there was a thriving market in old 11+ papers doing the rounds of certain types of parents and one of my friends' parents tried to get us to join a regular 'study' group

Agree 100% about faith schools and private primaries cramming to get their pupils into the state selectives for secondary school.

Gosh fmv, you don't look that old

I also think that only the top 5 or 10% of students should get into university .. it should be competitive judging based on exam results and interview like in dem olden days of yore

of course then we'd have to return to competitive marking of exam papers

ohoh, what changes are happening in Richmond?

But the "ability to pay" gives choice. Are you suggesting some sort of reverse mean-testing (familes with an income over £100k needn't apply?). One of the parents at my son's (private) school is a nurse who is working double shifts in order to fund her son's education. He is also on a bursary from the school as he seems to be very gifted in music. Should he lose his place at the local grammar because his mother has concerns about what would happen to him in the state primaries? (He happens to be black, so these are concerns shared by the likes of Diane Abbott etc).

Don't get me started on Diane Abbot. Class is the biggest factor in hoe kids do in school not race. It is not black middle class boys who are doing badly in school and Dianne should know that.