How late is too late to swap A levels?

[Oldowl]

DD is taking Maths, FM, Geography and Politics at a super selective Grammar at the start of Y12. She achieved 9 A* and 3 As at GCSE and at the moment wants to apply to Oxford to study Geography.

She is finding FM really tough and is stressing every night about it. She is desperate to give it up, but knows her school will insist she chooses another A level as all pupils take 4 (or 5) A levels. The problem comes that she does not have another A level choice that she wants to do. I have suggested economics, but it's a NO. Is it too late to start another A level if her peers are a month into the course? She asked her Head of 6th form if she could just do 3 plus EPQ about a fortnight ago and was told, 'No, all students do at least 4 in the lower 6th.'

The other problem with giving up FM is that she will have to change maths classes and will lose some brilliant maths teachers who get amazing results. She is in a real dilemma and is upset every night as the pace of the lessons and the workload is killing her love of school.

Seems like a good compromise. :)

DS's comp starts everyone on 4 (a very few on 5, though the one i know of has already dropped back to 4), and they take ASs in all of them.

Then usually drop 1 and continue to 3 A levels of their choice.

Seems to work - excellent grades last year, the first year of AS's being 'stand alone' not contributing to the A-level. Especially valuable to somewhat 'spiky' students like my DS, who will be able to apply to Uni with hopefully excellent ASs in the subjects he is really good at, rather than the slightly more mixed GCSE grades because of his spiky profile. Also good because he struggles with the exam process, so the more practice in 'exam technique' he gets the better.

Well I’m sorry noble but when I said “ 'may have a detrimental effect on their other grades” I meant that studying 4 s levels for a year, particularly with no intention of even finishing one of them may have a detrimental effect on their other grades. Not whatever alternative meaning you may choose to put on it. I meant exactly what I typed. Not your version of it.

Diluting effort for a while year on 4 instead of 3 subjects is bound to cut down on the amount of time that students have to devote to extra reading and other experiences which makes such a contribution to top and good grades.

Not to mention that for many students, the 4th a level is just that: a bit of an afterthought / padder that they intend to drop at the end of year 12 anyway.

My dd, like many others, decided at age about 7 what she wanted to study at uni. So your horror at narrowing down her curriculum is only welcomed by her as an opportunity to concentrate on the (as it happens 2) subjects she loves.

Sorry about the double post. Really patchy signal where I am

Op I’m really glad your dd is sorted.

Glad to hear there's a positive outcome.

is "incapable of managing" written to insult giraffe?
or to show your superiority perhaps

I have no doubt that many students forced to do 4 A levels would do much better doing 3 than 4 subjects, especially those where low A* at GCSE predicts that they may struggle to get an A at A levels. That is relevant to chemistry and physics in particular and maths to certain extent.

I wrote 'Up until last year, the vast majority of students did, and managed perfectly well, 4 subjects in Y12. The idea that even the brightest are suddenly incapable of managing this is bizarre.'

I can't see how 'incapable of managing' could be seen to be written as an insult here when I'm obviously saying that they are capable. Or to show that I'm somehow superior to sixth formers, that's a weird one.

The main reason that students are suddenly taking 3 A-levels instead of 4 across the country is because of sixth form funding cuts which no longer fund subjects but only fund students. Not because it was detrimental to their other subjects or because of any academic argument, but because schools would rather not have bums on seats that aren't paid for, and because they're ditching ASs as they are expensive and no longer have to be entered. It's a totally appalling state of affairs and actively detrimental to their education for reasons I've given upthread.

See for example this article from 2015:

"In the next round of cuts, which will hit 2016-17, Thomson has had to find a further 10% of savings. This time, he has decided to cut the number of courses students study. Instead of four AS-levels in the first year, which most sixth form students take, BHASVIC students will do just three A-levels over the two years.

“We’ve therefore cut the amount of teaching we have to give to our students to the bone,” says Thomson, but it is a plan that will secure the future solvency of the college, rated outstanding by Ofsted in 2012.

He predicts other sixth-form colleges will follow suit. “Nationally this is what will happen because the funding is dictating this. I’m sorry chaps, the money isn’t there. We are not going to be able to afford to run AS levels along with A levels. AS will wither on the vine and die.”"

www.theguardian.com/education/2015/feb/13/sixth-form-colleges-we-are-an-endangered-species

I’m sorry giraffe but it was you extrapolating meanings from my post. Not vice versa. I never said anywhere that students were incapable. That was your wording not mine.

Think you’re tying yourself in knots now

Eh, Bit? I was replying to antimatter, not you.

Less able students sit 1 or 2 A levels. Or none.

Have you had kids in 6-th form lately? Because I had one i old system and my second one is in y.13 so I can see the difference having 3 or 4 A levels subjects has. For bright kids, in super selective grammars. Both doing variety of subjects.
Of my dd's friends only one who was super interested in in her 4-th subject kept it going in y13. The rest gladly gave up their 4-th subject after passing AS's. I doubt their education suffered.

I’ve taught sixth form kids for 12 years. I don’t mind them dropping a subject after AS, that’s reasonable. It’s the new system where a lot of students are only allowed to take three from the start that’s dreadful.

I am a parent and can see stress kids are under.
I am confident my ds would crack under pressure if he had to di one more subject.
3 is enough. At least he has time for extra work he needs fir his art.
There may be a world where 18 year olds thrive under pressure. I am yet to encounter it.

Can't you see how kids in 6-th form are stressed trying to work out which Uni to choose because they will owe bank 40-60K? If that is not noticeable to you it is because they don't bother their teachers with their worries.
They get sleepless nights and all symptoms of which I at that age wasn't yet all they need is more studies and more knowledge. I'd say they need more time to relax and do short work experience visits to decide on a course they plan to apply to.

Can't you see how kids in 6-th form are stressed trying to work out which Uni to choose

They'll be more stressed with this choice if they're limited to 3 from the start of yr 12 and hate or struggle with one of them. Starting 4 but being allowed (or even encouraged) to drop one once they're sure which 3 to keep is safer. I hope no school restricts to 3 if one is FM.

Glad your DDs school has been sensible, OP. Trying out 4 (or 5 for some), great; making your DD keep 4 to the detriment of the other 3 would have been barmy. If she can put the energy into a relevant EPQ which demonstrates her genuine engagement with geography that makes much more sense.

errol have you got kids in 6-th form st present?
EPQ will be IMHO helpful if 6-th firmer can't show any other way that they are interested in this particular subject.
It won't make uni which is requiring aaa to accept student with aab and epq in a subject they are applying for

And complaining that somehow someone's general education is going to suffer greatly because they missed on an AS subject taught for one year is really not giving any credit to gcse's they passed and 3 a-levels they are engaged in.

No, I've got one just started uni, so just out the other end of the process.

EPQ will be IMHO helpful if 6-th firmer can't show any other way that they are interested in this particular subject.

It can be useful as one of the ways to demonstrate ongoing commitment to the subject. It may be less useful if your DC is doing art as (apart from being known as the most time consuming) has the 'doing' and project work more built in IYSWIM - one size doesn't fit all.

It won't make uni which is requiring aaa to accept student with aab and epq in a subject they are applying for

It may, in some cases. One of DD's offers was reduced a grade because she had an A star in her EPQ. It could be a differentiator if they miss a grade.*

And complaining that somehow someone's general education is going to suffer greatly because they missed on an AS subject taught for one year is really not giving any credit to gcse's they passed and 3 a-levels they are engaged in.*

Eh? That wasn't at all my point, if that was addressed to me. The problem which I've seen, even in my DD's cohort who mostly were allowed to start 4 A levels was that some found that they didn't like one at A level (especially if its a subject they didn't do for gcse) or that they find the jump to A level too hard - and in some cases more than one subject not working well for them. Or they may simply not make the wisest choices and leave themselves with few options. I'm saying they should be allowed to start more than 3 if they want, and allowed or encouraged to drop one. My DD started 4, dropped one after AS because she needed 3 excellent grades - if doing the AS hadn't still been possible she might have dropped the 4th subject sometime in yr 12 once she knew the other 3 subjects were the right ones.

3 subjects is enough - so long as they're the right 3 for aptitude, interest and course requirements.

And you are 19/20 errol and just applied to uni? I guess not.
So I think your experience can't compare. Your kids maybe.

You are the first person I came across who mentioned that a grade in epq made a difference to student's application and that said student was informed about it.
We and other parents were told that subjects grades matter. No uni ever mentioned epq grade.

I guess antimatter that you haven't met any kids who at the end of Y12 are faced with a fail grade in an A-level, who have performed really poorly in a subject in Y12 and who have no choice but to simply trudge on as they can't drop it. I've met a few.

Incidentally, there are universities who make different offers for EPQ grades - Birmingham, Lancaster and Southampton do. KCL want a 4th subject at AS.

DD really struggled with 4 subjects at A level in year 12. The fact that one of her subjects was really time consuming and she had so few frees meant that she was just about on her knees by the end of summer term. It might have contributed to the CFS she has now.

It is my understanding that 4 A levels was easier to cope with because they only had to remember a year's worth of work for the exams as the AS levels contributed towards 50% of the final mark. So anyone doing 4 A levels 5 years ago would have sat 4 x 1 year's work at the end of year 12 and 4 x 1 year's work at the end of year 13. With the new linear exams students would now have to sit 4 x 2 years' work at the end of year 13, therefore doubling the load.

I am happy to be corrected though.

Bath said they offer down a grade with EPQ too. Dc3 has just started 4 A levels (not doing FM) on basis that all are interesting & that you can learn for the pleasure of learning - you don’t have to have a certificate as proof, she might drop one in the summer or she might not.

Our experiences, and that of our kids, will be different. That's kind of the point of a lot of MN discussions - as a source of other people's experience and knowledge. Some may be useful and relevant to your kids, some may not be. One size doesn't fit all.

All girls do 4 A levels in y12 at dds' school. DD1 and her friends found it v hard to reduce to 4. They would have found it impossible to start with 3. I agree with Noble re the ability and desire of many children in superselectives.

noble if you say I guess antimatter that you haven't met any kids who at the end of Y12 are faced with a fail grade in an A-level, who have performed really poorly in a subject in Y12 and who have no choice but to simply trudge on as they can't drop it. I've met a few.
and you are telling me that for them doing 4 subjects during the time they struggled with 3 is a better option? on what basis? that they will fail more subjects?

is not the number of subjects which would fix it but how school advises them in their choice

If you do 4 and struggle with one, you can drop it. If you do 3 and struggle with one, that’s it for the next two years. I’m not sure why that’s so hard to understand. 4 options in Y12 gives more choices and opens more doors than 3.

Some schools (perhaps even moreso large 6th form colleges) unfortunately don't always give good advice. The school can't always tell whether a kid will struggle with the jump to A levels, or if they may dislike a new subject, or what is the right 3 if they don't know what they want to do after 6th form.

Starting with 3 is fine if its the right 3. Dropping to 3 absolutely can be the right thing to do, as the OPs DD has now been allowed to. Even if the student isn't struggling its often the right thing to do once they're sure which 3 to keep.