Girls schools - good for grades, terrible for mental health?

[JustHope]

We have started looking at secondary schools for our Y5 DD. One of the options is an all girls school the other is an equally good co-ed Academy.

Apparently studies have shown that girls perform better at all girls schools but I am also aware of tales of bitchiness and increased risks of self harm and eating disorders. DH and I both went to co-ed so really we cannot draw from personal experience.

I would appreciate the thoughts and experiences of you wise MN folk.

TIA

Oops posted too early:

I also happen to agree with this: Personally I'm not a fan of single sex education because society isn't single sex.

I went to girls grammar myself and had a good time there, but did feel awkward around boys at uni later for quite some time.

Re: eating disorders/mental health - I was oblivious to those while at school, as I was in a happy geek niche, but as I finished, I discovered there were actually quite a few issues, which at the time felt like they were swept under the carpet a bit by the school.

Friends' daughter attended a (different) girls school as well and there was an underlying culture of maintaining pretty appearance there at all costs - her self-esteem improved dramatically once my friend transferred her to the local co-ed.

I know for sure I won't send DS to local boys grammar as the sexist, chauvinistic undertones most of them seem to develop there are frankly scary - I've dealt with a few of their graduates now, both at uni and at work... and, no thanks.

Conversely, there are other boys schools around town (that we are not in zone for, sadly) that seem to consistently produce good graduates.

So yes, check school, relate its culture to child and enrol accordingly. Good luck!

I went to an all girls school and it was great! While there were many girls with mental health problems I wouldn't say there were any more than in the coed schools where I knew people, the girls at my school where just much more open about it (which also meant that they were more likely to get help). There was of course bitchiness because teenage girls but it was also quite a supportive, non-judgemental environment in sone ways. The best thing about it is that there wasn't any pressure to 'grow up' too quickly. No bodu called you a looser if you didn't make out with boys on the weekend or if you never even kissed anyone at all etc.

I am a huge fan of co-ed schools despite having gone to a girls school where I was happy. My friends with girls at very high performing independent girls schools are having much bigger friendship issues than those at co-ed schools. There are issues amongst girls in all the schools, but it certainly seems much more intense at schools which are dominated by alpha females than at those where there's a broader mix of girls. It's always going to entirely depend on the cohort but certainly what I'm seeing at the girls schools is pretty much a mirror image of some of the vile behaviour which went on at my leading girls school. A friend of mine works a job share at a highly selective girls independent and a co-ed less high performing independent and she said that the social issues at the girls school are on a different scale to the ones at the co-ed. She feels it's mainly the competitive nature of many of the girls and the drive to be the best, prettiest, most popular and the leader which is more diluted in the other school.

ujerney - but you're not comparing like with like? Not all girls schools are high performing - and it could be the pressure to perform causing friendship issues, rather than the all-girls environment. And just because girls are academic doesn't make them all Alpha females. And not all independent schools are the same, as all state schools are not the same.
As others have said - you have to find the right school for each individual, and that needs to take account of the school ethos and atmosphere, support networks etc, not just the academic performance, or whether it's single sex.

I went to an all girls school, loved it. Lived with those girls 24/7 in term time and we are still close 20+ years later. They know me better than my own family!
No issues making male friends in university either.
My school had good pastoral care though and was pretty inclusive to varying abilities, loads of drama/sport/music/technology alongside the more academic subjects

My own dc's have spent far more time worrying about the opposite sex than I ever did (they are in coed)

I didn't really enjoy my single sex school and now prefer the mixed comp I work in (though I know it's different being a teacher than a student!) As a lot of posters have said, really depends on child and school. One thing I would say is that if she does go single sex, aim for some extra curricular activities where she can mix socially with boys - I did scouts and made some great male friends there.

I don't see how this question can be answered without resorting to anecdote and stereo-typing.

If anyone's interested in my personal anecdote, I went to an all-girls secondary and loathed it. I was a geek, interested in sci-fi, gaming, coding, graphic novels etc etc. Remember this was back in the 90s when all these interests were pretty niche anyway. I was labelled as being a freak, for having interests that didn't fit in with what the alpha girls deemed "normal". Added to that, I was overweight. I was "Fat Freak" shortened to F-squared for more years than I care to recall. I developed an eating disorder and also self-harmed mildly. The staff preferred the plaster-on-an-amputation approach and brushed everything under the carpet. "Nothing to see here, except our results!"

All this only ended when I went to a co-ed sixth form, and suddenly realised that I was not a freak, and my interests were not at all niche - they were just interests that had a predominantly male following! I found my group (90% male) and found my self-confidence. If I had gone to a co-ed secondary, I would not have had to endure the bullying I did, because I would have been able to retreat to male friendships.

I now am quite senior in a male-dominated field, and I can categorically say that I am here IN SPITE of my all-girls education, not because of it as generalised upthread (I've noticed that a disproportionate number of "successful" women went to girls schools - balderdash!)

I am equally against all-boys schools, having seen first-hand the misogynistic mindset that the boys develop there over their formative years. All my children go to co-ed schools and are thriving in mixed friendship groups. Life is not co-ed, as succinctly put by a PP.

But, at the end of the day, you must choose the school that's right for your own child. No single person's anecdote can make that decision for you.

DD went to an all girls grammar, it was excellent, didn't seem to be rife with 'bitchiness' (nasty sexist term, that) or MH problems. OTOH there's a private girls' school in the area we wouldn't have touched with a bargepole.

As with all schools, you need to look at each separately, how it might suit your child

I don't buy the problem with single sex schools being that society isn't single sex.

Society isn't spending 6 hours a day with people the same age as you either!

It totally depends on the child and on the school. You can look at the DfE performance tables to check progress/attainment of all pupils/boys/girls at your local schools.

The main thing that girls' schools have going for them imho is that they're one of the few (maybe only?) institutions that are set up around the needs of girls or women.

Thanks for all of your replies. I can see the pros and cons of each setting but I am still not sure what is best for my DD . She is a summer born, very engaged, keen to please sort and I just want to find the best place to keep her motivated while also not being rushed into growing up too quick.

My DN attends a co-ed and although she is happy there she changed overnight to being disinterested in school work and obsessed with how she looks. Would that be any different if she was at an all girls school? Who knows

I think it depends on the school and the year group.

I know of people who have had major problems with bullying and nastiness in a fee-paying girls' school, and in a co-ed comp - both boys and girls involved in bullying.

DD goes to a girls' grammar and has made lovely friends. The school deals with any bullying well - but tbh there have been hardly any issues.

I my experience pressure on girls to look good is to impress their girl peers and not the boys

If after reading all these different views you're still not sure what's best for your DD, OP, it may be that your gut is telling you the coed/all girls choice just isn't a key factor for her. That's what we essentially decided for ours: we chose the school on other factors. Sometimes, too, having trouble choosing between schools indicates that they have a roughly equal chance of being fine, so that the choice just isn't very important. Sometimes my nn is apt :-)

I work in a split site girls' school. I'd send a daughter to the school in a heartbeat. I think girls are much more supportive of each other in a single sex environment and the girls I work with don't have to deal with the sexual harassment and misogyny that I did at my mixed comp. Having the younger years separated from the older ones puts less pressure on the younger ones to grow up too quickly too. The most popular subject at A Level is maths whereas in the local mixed schools the A Level maths classes are very much dominated by boys.

I don't know why parents worry so much about this either. Also, why do parents automatically assume their DDs head will be turned by other pupils in a way they dislike? What is wrong with being confident in your own parenting and not worrying about other children? Why would your child grow up too fast? What is wrong with children who do? Are they demons for being a bit more advanced in some ways? What does it matter if they are still doing well at school? It is so judgemental to dislike other children so much that you cannot bear your DD to be with them! Just choose the school that she likes and where she feels comfortable. Put your prejudices to one side and look at the education on offer not at what may never happen!

No bitchiness at my all girls school in the 1970s nor in DD's now.

Both my DC go to single sex schools as did I. DH went co-ed and commented on zero girls doing physics at his school. So he was very pro DD going all girls.

Plus both of my DC only had friends of the same sex from Junior school. Single sex school gave them 30 potential friends in their class rather then 15!

I agree that mental health issues are usually rooted in issues outside of school.
There may well be a disproportionate number of those with mental health issues in single sex or possibly high flying schools because the families who choose such schools may create pressure on the kids....the school is not the cause of the pressure and mental health problems.
And I agree that unhappy children with me to health issues would probably be unhappy children with mental health issues in any school. Some schools might be better at recognising and providing help for e these things than others, but I don't think they are usually the root cause of the problems.
Pressure is a complex thing. Kids who get into the top single sex selective schools have to go through quite a lot of pressure to get in, in the first place in many cases. Some have had years of tutoring and their parents are terrified about 'failure' and having to go to a different type of school. It is almost impossible to keep that pressure and burden from the child. They are already under immense pressure to succeed before they arrive at the secondary school. And then they have to keep up, if parents are only satisfied with them being in the top few, which is difficult when everyone is clever.
I think parental attitudes towards schooling and education make a huge difference. It is possible to value education and to instill a desire to do well in kids, without it becoming overwhelming and a huge burden. I'm sure lots of us need to work on that.

Although it may appear that girls schools obtain higher results, the question for me is whether this is just because they take only girls or are other factors at play here e.g. girls schools more likely to be selective ( a lot of girls schools in some areas are grammar schools), how much of this is due to the intake and how much is down to the teaching rather than the pupils.
There is a former girls school in our neighbouring town which was all girls a few years ago and was top of the league tables. It is now co-ed and still top of the league tables so that suggests this was down to being a very good school rather than the fact that it was all girls.
Some of the things mentioned to do with girls being obsessed with looks etc may be more down to the ethos of the school rather than whether it was single sex or not. Certainly it wasn't like that for dd at her co-ed school.
Any anecdotes of no girls studying Physics (at A level?) are likely to be outdated too. Most schools are very equal opps conscious now and would encourage girls to take subjects such as Physics if they had the ability to do so.

I went to an all girls' school and did self-harm, but that was due to severe PMS and I was much worse at university.

My school wasn't bitchy at all - the girls were generally friendly and supportive, and seemed a lot more confident in themselves than my friends from mixed schools. Little things made a difference - the sound engineers and stage hands in school plays were all girls; we were expected to lift heavy furniture and get things from high cupboards and hold doors open, and be competent.

Those 7 years were the only time in my life where the default human being was female, and that experience of being a person rather than a female person was really special.

My daughter has just started at an all girls school in Yr 7 and was at a mixed primary. So far she is loving it. Girls will still be unkind to one another in a mixed school, and in my opinion boys are often at the heart of any drama (certainly most of the fall outs and drama that happened in primary yr 6, boys were involved or even the cause).
One thing I noticed at an evening event at her new school was that the girls are much less self aware and less concerned about looking silly, they threw themselves into what was potentially an embarrassing show for parents with no hesitation, I think once boys are in the mix girls are more hesitant, at least that has been my experience.

My DD goes to a selective girls-only state school. It was the right choice for her, she's very academic and has thrived in this environment - she compares her experience with her primary school girl friends who went to nearby state mixed comps and she thinks she has made the right choice.

Whether an all girls environment induces "bitchiness" is a non-question. "Bitchiness" amongst girls (if it occurs) will occur whether there are boys around or not. Friendship issues will occur regardless of the single/mixed sex issue.

It depends so much on the person and their friendship group. My DD's school environment allows all the girls to be fearless and uninhibited when it comes to academics - there's no false suggestion that girls can't be good or enjoy STEM subjects.

There's a big variety of "types" of girls at school (sporty, geeks, populars etc.) but they all seem to rub along together in my DD's experience.

I also have a DD at an all girls school ...but it is an Independent and I think the girls are somewhat more considerate to each other (which may also be the case with grammar schools). There are friendship changes - some of which really surprise me in year 10/11 when the girls have been friends for many many years.

My only comment is that there seems to be more issues with sexuality - allot of the girls proclaim they are gay/bi have crushes on teachers - it may be so ...but I think because they are mainly in an all girls environment they have no experience of boys ...some cant handle dealing with such feelings and therefore it leads to mental health issues- I know one of my daughter's friends is in counselling but I also know of other girls in counselling at Co Ed schools ...

I went to a girls school. It was remarkably un bitchy. My dd goes to a coed and it's much bitchier and seems to stem around boys. Thankfully dd does not get involved.

Those 7 years were the only time in my life where the default human being was female, and that experience of being a person rather than a female person was really special.

This- really good point. ^^^^
This was my experience too. I think it was very formative looking back and has served me well to have confidence knowing what we/I could do, since the rest of life hasn't been like that.

I don't think single sexual schools are bad for mental health.
Instagram, lack of exercise and parental neglect may affect mental health more.
If there is bullying then of course this is different but I don't think all girls schools are any worse for this.