Guess what? Mindfulness in secondary schools turns out to be crap

[noblegiraffe]

Extensive trials of mindfulness in secondary schools shows no measurable benefits in terms of a wide range of psychological measures including anxiety and depression.

The failure is being blamed on teens being too cynical.

digest.bps.org.uk/2017/09/26/perhaps-teens-are-too-cynical-to-benefit-from-mindfulness-say-authors-of-latest-negative-school-trial/

I'm a big fan of mindfulness - it works really well to make me mildly less psychotic.
But the version in that article sounds like a bunch of Woo.

Teens ARE cynical
but "skills to cope with stress" which is what mindfulness really is
need to be introduced in a focused manner, not by quizzes and posters.

It definitely has its place for teenagers but I'm pretty sure the classroom is not the right one.

Only works if the person involves wants to be involved. Having mindfulness foisted on you is never going to work. Would be better if it was a lunchtime club for those who want to do it.

What whathave said. Also, probably older teens would be better target area.

Too cynical teens. Wrong age teens. Teens who didn't want to do it.

Maybe it's not the teens that are the problem? If something is shown not to work then the usual scientific response is to conclude that the intervention didn't work. It's only when people are particularly wedded to something working that they then start blaming the patients when it doesn't

The correct response to this would not be 'we need to try it with slightly different aged teens with a less cynical outlook who have chosen to be there'. It would be 'let's abandon this and get on with stuff with an evidence-base'.

But noblegiraffe, wouldn't that depend on whether we had any evidence that it had worked with a different selection, for a different problem, in a different setting? After all, you probably wouldn't improve the general wellbeing of a random bunch of teenagers by feeding them painkillers but for the ones who were in pain it might actually make a difference.

For my dd, who was a) experiencing a genuine and clearly defined problem b) anxious to work hard at any technique she was taught, mindfulness was a very useful part of treatment and actually did a lot of good. Otoh nothing that required patient participation did any good with her brother who was also struggling but suspicious and refusing to engage. And it would have been a complete waste of time for me at that age because I wasn't struggling and had other things I wanted to get on with.

hmmm DD1 did it in yr7 and said it was relaxing but boring
however since she did it she has got into colouring books. She must have got that idea from somewhere!

DD2 is doing it at the moment. says its boring. they have to "sit up straight" and relax and be still according to her. They might have more luck with mats / beanbags?

noble
There is a massive evidence base for MBSR (mindfulness based stress relief) and for CBT (cognitive behaviour therapy)
they are linked
and the principle of starting in teenage years is presumably to stop them turning into adults in need of greater interventions

on which basis I support the effort
but it has to be tried in enough ways to find the one that works.

Helping kids to cope with stress and pressure without needing as much alcohol as our generation seems to
or as many weird pills as the middle one seems to
HAS to be a good thing

mindfulness is just another crank theory spouted by educational psychologists with no medical qualifications what so ever, imposed on teachers, who are forced to go along with it, mostly knowing it was a load of old crap, then dumped when the next big thing comes along...

same as growth mindsets, learning styles, brain gym, etc etc etc etc , the next big thing will also be crap, we already know that in advance, even before it has arrived in our training schedules, and it will be forced on us for a year or two, then dumped for something else crap, and so it will go on forever.

There is a massive evidence base for MBSR

Everywhere I look that's not sponsored by some mindfulness company talks about low quality evidence, lack of controls, self-reported outcomes. Where you have quality clinical trials, you get stuff like 'no benefit except for cases of depression where the subject has already suffered 3 major relapses' which is fairly niche.

There also seems to be huge differences in various programmes, the intensity, the expectation of home study and so on, and no actual qualification required to set yourself up as an instructor. If a programme has been imposed on you rather than something you've signed up to and you're not actually ill, what are the chances of you actually taking it seriously?

The much-headlined mental health crisis in schools needs proper funding for experts, CAMHS and so on. Not some chirpy trainer to come in, do a half-day INSET with teachers and for them all to be now 'mindfulness-trained' as usually happens and for everyone to think that they've now sorted mental health.

And more worryingly, it seems that mindfulness is not free of negative side effects and there are many reports of negative feelings, anxiety and so on being triggered as part of the process. That's the last thing we want to be going on in schools on a large scale.

Not some chirpy trainer to come in, do a half-day INSET with teachers and for them all to be now 'mindfulness-trained' as usually happens
Abso-blerdy-lutely
I'm shocked if that is what is really going on

Lots of people (including me, and I'm very non-woo) have found mindfulness really helpful. But it's effectiveness must be dependent on so many factors (the skill and attitude of the person delivering it, the specific problems of the person trying to benefit from it, and their attitude towards it). It helped me loads, and that was just from reading about it on the internet and in a book. It's not easy to try and judge something like Mindfulness on the same basis as you would judge a drug or a surgery technique, but that doesn't mean it can't help people.

I'm a teacher and can see why introducing mindfulness in schools is tempting, but I can also see many reasons why it wouldn't work.

There's lots of people who find homeopathy helpful, but that doesn't mean we should start peddling it to teenagers in schools.

The minute someone says 'this intervention can't be tested in the same way as other interventions' or 'this failed trial isn't because the intervention was ineffective but because the patients weren't positive enough about it' is exactly the minute you should put your chequebook back in your pocket and walk away.

I'm not sure why you are so angry noble

Yes, CAMHS needs better funding
but effective use of self motivated talking therapies will reduce the pressure and deal with a lot of the worried well

how is that a bad thing

and who is talking about charging for mindfulness?
The "headspace" app is free for example

I'm shocked if that is what is really going on

I'd be shocked if that sort of thing isn't going on. The Tories had some big plan in their manifesto for every school to have a teacher trained in mental health. I think the money set aside added up to like a day's training per teacher tops. Because that'd be enough

Do you have any evidence that it is ?
eg companies advertising such inset sessions?

I'm not sure why you are so angry noble

Because there are kids in school who are really struggling with their mental health and need access to expert services like CAMHS who are seeing funding cuts left right and centre and instead on focusing on resources to help them, money and time is being pissed away on the latest fad that once again has been shown to be bobbins.

And because shitey companies keep posting spammy adverts on MN about how they'd love to bring their version of mindfulness to schools, it seems there are plenty of snake-oil salespeople out there trying their luck. Mental health has become a buzzword, mindfulness a fashionable sticking plaster. But the real problems remain.

What would improve mental health in secondary schools is a reduction of tests, targets, assessments, comparisons and an overall emphasis on data that forces SLTs to see students as 'data' and loses sight of the whole child. This would entail massive changes within central government.

A focus on the joy of learning in the here and now, rather than talking about GCSEs the moment children step into Y7.

A sensible, research and educationalist led curriculum that is broad, varied and flexible.

Exam formats that are flexible, student-centred and less cut throat.

Proper funding so that there are sufficient qualified teaching and support staff, who feel valued and respected.

Sufficient funds to resource the above, and provide test books, mend leaky roofs, fix broken boilers etc.

A stop to the endless tinkering with the curriculum, exam formats etc and space for proper thought and reflection.

A move away from some children being seen as 'more valuable' to the school because of their likely exam attainment, as the cost of others being seen as less valuable.

Properly resourced and staffed CAMHS teams that are able to offer prompt and if necessary long term interventions.

The list goes on and on and on.

Learning to breath in a particular way doesn't really cut the mustard, given the state of play at the moment.

Someone better tell Oxford Professor Mark Williams that his mindfulness research is below par with low quality evidence, lack of controls, self-reported outcomes I'm sure he will be glad to know. Better tell Sara Lazar the Harvard Neuroscientist as well that her research is just a loads of codswallop. Https:www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2015/05/26/harvard-neuroscientist-meditation-not-only-reduces-stress-it-literally-changes-your-brain/?utm_term=.e204867524ec
Thanks noble

I think your anger is misdirected op. The problems you really want to discuss are the underfunding of education and health, and the appalling attitude to public sector staff.

Better tell Sara Lazar the Harvard Neuroscientist as well that her research is just a loads of codswallop.

Her research, on 16 people, was about brain scans, not actual behaviour.

Also the paper says 'While significant Pre-Post changes in the TPJ, PCC, and cerebellum have been found in the present study, it is unclear why previous cross-sectional studies of meditators have not identified group differences in these regions. It is possible that small differences existed but were not detected due to the lack of power in the previous small cross-sectional studies, or that structural changes are transient and change might be maximal when a skill is newly acquired (Driemeyer et al., 2008).
It should be noted also that MBSR is a multifaceted group program and some positive effects may result from components not specific to meditation or mindfulness, such as group social interaction, stress education, or gentle stretching exercises. Exercise is know to increase neurogenesis in the hippocampus (van Praag et al., 1999). Since it also plays a crucial role in long-term memory consolidation and learning, structural changes might be related to general learning that occurred during the MBSR course analogous to those found in a study of medical students learning new information (Draganski et al., 2006). Comparing the brain gray matter concentration changes in the MBSR group to those of a waitlist control group, the current study did not allow differentiating between the effects of these different components. Indeed, the absence of a positive correlation between the change in gray matter concentration and the amount of homework suggests that the number of minutes of formal homework exercise are not the primary driving force behind the effects, but that the MBSR program as a whole influences the morphological changes. Future studies employing an active control condition that includes the mindfulness-unspecific components of the program (e.g., MacCoon et al., 2008) would help isolate the specific effects of meditation. Also, the current study investigated physician- and self-referred individuals seeking stress reduction and generalizations should therefore be limited to this population of stress individuals. Future studies will be required to test whether findings extend to non-stressed individuals as well as individuals suffering from mental disorders. Finally, the current study employed a rather small sample size and replication is necessary."

So yeah. Mindfulness changes your brain would be overstating that evidence somewhat.

I'm with you OP.

I once worked in a school which was systematically destroying its teaching staff's morale, confidence, benefits and frankly, spirit.

They were looking after us all though, they signed us all up for a free mindfulness app.

Just to show us how much they cared you couldn't log into it without letting the chief monster know what you were doing.

A half day INSET is not a replacement for proper medical intervention. If a mass strategy is appealing because it is cheap it is not a good strategy.

I know someone who delivers mindfulness training in schools and noble is pretty much spot on in her opinion of how it's delivered. This same person is also a nlp practitioner, hypnotherapist etc as well as having a full time job. I gave up attempting to have any sort of sensible conversation with her when she claimed to have cured someone's Parkinson's
It's woolly, unscientific and only effective on people who want it to be effective. It has no place in school and should never be a substitute for proper mental health care and assessment.

I find it telling that I teach in a school for students with social, emotional and mental health difficulties and we haven't touched "mindfulness".

Our Ed Psychologists etc would probably laugh if you suggested it.

It may have some small benefit for invested individuals with relatively minor difficulties but should never have been rolled out the way it has been.

After witnessing the fallout from this, it should have never gone into schools.
The whole be quiet, be still, let your mind drift and open that door, or doors.
The door is closed for often damn good reasons, and after the session ends that door may not actually close, and the person is then left alone to deal with the shit behind the door.

It may be beneficial to some, but not everyone. Because not everyone has the same shit behind the doors. Some people were perfectly happy to have those doors sealed shut.

Forcing a room full of people to do this when you don't know about their life is bad. CBT you have to undergo a full psychological evaluation to see if you are suitable for this or if other treatments are required. But yet mindfulness, yup anyone can sit in.

Sadly our Ed Psychologists didn't laugh. What's the harm? Several members of staff have since been signed off with various MH. Some have left altogether. A number of students already having issues are severely depressed. I think we were some type of guinea pigs.

Less than 2 years later thankfully it has now been scrapped. Someone listened to all the companies about how good it is and convinced everyone else what a good idea it would be. We even had the 1/2 day session and the one that introduced it, went on numerous courses to become qualified in this.

Mindfulness is a stress management technique that some people find useful.

It's not a mental health intervention in itself, nor is it suitable to be used in some sort of mass prescriptive way.

It's a cop out from really dealing with issues, whether because of financial restraints or that SLT don't have a clue about mental distress.