Struggles with analysing literature - any way round this constant problem?

[thathappened]

Help! It's a constant nightmare. I don't really know how to help. DD thinks my views are wrong but can offer nothing and so we have an ongoing nightmare whenever homework is about analysing a chapter(s) or characters. Can anyone offer advice??? Ways to deal with or get through this besides turning to the gin??!

Sorry if this derails

burning books is outrageous! You don't gave to keep them, give them to a charity shop, but to destroy them in this way is symbolic of a closed mind Why? Because I would say that comment is the sign of a snobbish mind.

Charity shop wont take them as they are old, well used and covered in written notes. School doesn't want them either as parents buy their own copies. No one wants them on Amazon as they are not worth the P&P. Its no different than the newspapers/magazines I use to light my living room fire.

You say closed mind, I say a rite of passage, freeing a space on the book shelf for new books more knowledge and like a reborn phoenix renewing a love for learning that celebrates overcoming difficulties whist acknowledging the stress they caused.

"Open your mind to new ideas dont get stuck with old ones"

I worry about this with one of mine.

Most things Like Mr Buffin and York Notes have been suggested.

Wondered if by sarcastic productions might help more generally - seems to be at least interesting mine. Basically looking for patterns - I was surprised when mine watched the five man trope and started looking at their favourite shows and trying to identify who held which position.

Wouldn’t help with individual texts –( though they summarise a fair few plays and books) – but more thinking about why that was written a bit more.

user I was not remotely joking, no. I think it is beyond awful to burn books.

Children are taught to give the 'correct' opinion of the text as is expected by the examination boards mark scheme, they will be marked down hard for giving their own actual opinion

And that is not remotely true.

"Crappy literature" = closed mind. I don't enjoy reading Dickens, does that make him crappy? No, I am not the arbiter of what is good/bad, so I leave it open. But there is something symbolic about burning books that I find offensive. If you don't fine but you cannot judge me for feeling it is wrong.

Incorrect, if the questions asks what is x, you will get full marks for the correct answer irrespective of not showing your working. If the question is show that x=y then the correct answer is showing the memorized proof.

And this is also not true. many a time my DS has lost marks for not showing working in GCSE tests.

You seem a bit obsessed with getting 'top marks' and think you can do this by memorising answers. The former is not what the OP asked about and the latter will not help in English Lit.

Mr Bruff by the way may not help. he s a bit of a cult icon , but generally speaking amongst high to very high ability students, at whom he aims his stuff. He didn't massively hold my DS's attention.

There is good advice on this thread : learning and 'regurgitating' is not amongst the good advice.

Sure I can accept that some people have a sort of 'reverence' to old school books for reasons that I dont understand (maybe its a generational thing?). We will have to agree to disagree. Books are a medium to convey knowledge, its the knowledge that is important not the medium. To me disposing of old used school books (once a year) is no different than deleting an old text file on my ipad that I dont need anymore, so I can download a new file.

Anyways just this year one of my DC was doing a Literature test, question was, in your opinion... DC (despite knowing not to) actually gave their opinion. English teacher failed them because "despite what the question had asked they were supposed to give the 'opinion' that they had learned in class", which upset them a lot because that response didn't make sense.

So as several posters with experience of children like this have said , just learn the factual objective answers of other people from York notes, Mr Bruff or where ever and regurgitate them when needed to get top marks. I am not saying this is for all children, just the small number who are wired to objective thinking and can't comprehend (it really messes with their heads) subjective interpretation of opinions.

I didn't mean use York notes to plagiarise, I meant to support her learning!
I have an English degree and found them very useful at GCSE/A level.

user you are being a bit offensive by dismissing the opinions of actual English teachers on here as not relevant. I am an English teacher with experience of teaching and marking and have a factually wired DS who just did his GCSEs.

You will NOT get top marks by regurgitating. The mark scheme is very very clear on this . it offers a range of things a student might say but is clear that any valid response should be rewded. Originality and flair are highly rewarded. there is also a hefty unseen element in Lit paper 2 9AQA) and in both Lang papers all material is unseen.

Your DC's teacher's response was not helpful unfortunately and sounds counter productive. Of course, there can just be downright wrong things to say ( eg when Macbeth kills Duncan the audience is delighted) but generally any valid response reaps reward. In fact, an examiner would report a school if huge numbers of students regurgitated the same , memorised answers.

Not everyone who mentioned York Notes said to memorise the pages : that was just you! I am all for York Notes etc. as a helpful tool to explain, clarify, support and assist.

It was the specific incitement to burn books that enraged me - not ethical disposal. There really are unfortunate overtones to book burning.

The question also wasn't well worded ... I would have to double check but it is unusual before A level for a question to use the phrase 'in your opinion'

Another good YouTube channel for Lit is Stacey Reay.

I do agree with that pengggwynn but I am not sure that is what user is advocating!

user has several times referred to gaining 'top' marks by memorising whole answers. This definitely does work in GCSE MFL but not Engish lit. If only we could be so sure what would come up!!!

A tiny bit of lit analysis is about opinion ,anyway, isn't it?

The thing maybe to put energy into if one thrives on learning things off by heart is learning quotations.

You did mention flashcards user which is good advice.

In my son's school they're taught to structure their work using SUSTITs: Subject, Unusual Language, Structure, Themes, Imagery, Tone. They're asked to try and find three examples for each section and to use PQEs (Point, Quote, Explanation) for each example. They get extra points for embedding their quote and for adding historical context to their explanation.

many a time my DS has lost marks for not showing working in GCSE tests I know teachers bang on about this all the time, and I understand why. If you dont get the question correct of course you will lose (or more correctly not gain) marks for not showing the working out. But if the question does not specifically ask for the working out and your answer is right you do not lose marks, that is just stupid.

You seem a bit obsessed with getting 'top marks' I just want every child to do the best they can, doesn't every parent?

... and think you can do this by memorizing answers In this very specific instance I know that a child like the OP has described (which sounds similar to mine) can do better by learning the factual answers than if you try and attempt to force them to do something that their brain just can't comprehend (which the op describes as a nightmare).

So yes as the op asked about in this specific instance, learning & regurgitating is the best option to get a child like this past GCSE Eng Lit. As opposed to turning learning into a perpetual nightmare for the child, doing more harm, failing the exam and having to resit it.

Ermmm. you wouldn't have to resit lit.

But anyway, let's agree to differ.

You definitely DO lose marks for not showing working. I am afraid I am right. I am not saying it isn't stupid.

Of course every parent wants their child to do their best : this isn't always top marks, though.

I think OP needs to seek advice from teachers who know her child.

SUSTITS just made me titter. I am childish.

I invented the mnemonic FLAPS in all innocence. It has become extraordinarily rude now but the students remember it!

FWIW that's Form Language Audience Purpose

oops and Structure

To add, the reason why my DS did worse in one lit paper than the other was nothing to do with wrong (or right) opinions. It was about him not having read the text, not knowing enough details of plot, not absorbing much about context and not being able , therefore, to place the passage within the ridiculously long novel.

Great Expectations still lurks evilly on his shelves , though, unburnt...

Your DD will be fine in exams if she actually has confidence in the content and context of texts. the teacher will teach her analysis skills. Have faith in these developing with maturity.

Piggy am a bit miffed your saying I am being offensive when you implied I was a Nazi for disposing of old unwanted school books on a bonfire. I am certainly not dismissing teachers views, I am only defending my view having been though this with children exactly like op described. I am not implying this is a good way to teach for a whole class of children.

IME the only thing that worked was just learning the answers and repeating them. All other teacher interventions make matters a lot worse and caused problems in areas outside of English. DC has now got top marks by doing exactly this. Maybe it was an anomaly, I am prepared to accept that if I saw their paper.

any valid response should be rewded Of course but the key word there is valid. Some opinions are valid some aren't... If you saw the real opinion of a child who cant give a subjective opinion of a fictional character you like I have would probably conclude it was fucked up not valid

there is also a hefty unseen element... Yip I know and as my DC was taught in class by an actual English teacher to plan several answers and shoehorn them to the exam question. At home we refined (looked up on internet) several top class essays/answers and he did exactly that (obviously a few small changes to fit the exam answer).

I am all for York Notes etc. as a helpful tool to explain, clarify, support and assist We just went one stage further and used them as the basis for planning/memorising answers.

I said the book burning example in a light hearted way as an example of what we do at the end of the year, I have no knowledge of historical incitements to burn books and was not intending to incite hatred of books. So if that upset you I am sorry. HTH

I didn't imply you were a Nazi: I said Nazis burnt books. I am [shocked] you don't know that.

I am a bit miffed that you keep (unintentionally?) dismissing my years' worth of experience! Of course I have seen real opinions - some valid; some less so. Can you give an example of the kind of way out opinion your DC would come up with?? Am genuinely interested as to what would construe fucked up having read much left field stuff over the years!

I have no idea what grade your DC got. If they did well, well, then , they are more able than you are making out/ aware of. Being able to learn and adapt all answers off by heart is an impressive feat and requires a huge amount of dedication and intelligence.

All the stuff about shoehorning has just made me a bit sad really. I don't think your DC's English teacher and I would get on very well, philosophically. hey ho. Different strokes and all that.

brackets fail...

I am you didn't know that !