EPQ or Further Maths

[jacktar]

DS starting year 12 doing maths further maths physics and chemistry. He is aiming for physics related degree at Russell Group or equivalent. Clearly later fm will be useful but so many RG universities are offering a grade discount for epq and nothing for a whole A level fm which would involve much more work.

Is it best he leaves fm until the first year of his degree or does it now. Epq and fm at the same time may be a stretch.

The advice DS got from one of his economics teachers was that if he was planning to take a degree with a strong maths content, he should learn as much maths as he could at school, in a familiar class room situation.

With the proviso that he had enough aptitude and willingness to work, that FM would not be too much of a stretch.

This appears to have been good advice. DS initially found the pace and style of University maths teaching quite difficult. He was astonished to cover half the content of a FM paper in a single lecture. It was really useful to have the buffer of extra knowledge whilst he found his feet. Once there though, he has found University maths far more interesting than A level ever was. The same seems to be true of others he knows, studying engineering or physics who equally have been skewing their degrees towards maths modules.

Thanks need more sleep.

What grade did he get for his maths? What about for his other subjects?

Tell me more abut grade discounts for EPQ?

I hadn't heard anything about that although I know it stands them in good stead if they apply to somewhere where they interview to have that level of supercurricular knowledge (assuming the EPQ relates to the intended degree subject).

If there is any chance that your DS might want to do Maths (or joint honours Maths and Physics) rather than Physics as a degree I'd definitely say to do FM as it is a requirement for some courses.

No one seemed particularly interested in DS's EPQ when he was applying to university two years ago - he was doing 4 A-levels (inc. maths and further maths) plus EPQ, but all his offers were just based on three A-levels, making the 4th and the EPQ rather irrelevant. He applied to five Russell Group universities (but not Oxbridge).

The further maths has been useful in his course, though (economics), and I would expect it to be even more relevant to a physics-related degree.

What would the EPQ be in?

A lot of Unis now will give a one grade discount for an EPQ, I think Bath, Leeds, Exeter, Southampton off top of head. Lots of others will apparently take it into account if you miss your grades. DS regrets not giving it a go as he had to so a slightly shorter essay for lower 6th anyway. and he moans about it everytime he looks at the UCAS site.

But your DS sounds solid FM material jacktar. He is obviously extremely capable and IMO should keep FM for all the reasons needsmore mentions.

Ds got a 9 for maths mostly a*s and a couple of bs

One grade discount at Southampton and a few other Russell group for epq at grade A.

He's good at maths and science - less willing on the essay front although he knows its inevitable later on. He hasn't thought much about epq as school is pushing him to maths fm route.

He should absolutely take FM then with those grades rather than hoping for lowered grades into university. it will open more doors for him.

FM for sure

FM is way more useful for physics than an EPQ.

Grade discounts are utterly irrelevant - physics is an under-subscribed subject and very highly respected Russell Group courses were taking ABB, even BBB in Clearing.

BTW if he wants to be a theoretical physicist and goes down the maths with physics or physics with maths route, there are places that give a discount of one grade for having FM.

Thanks all. I feel reassured he is not missing some low hanging fruit in the epq.

If he doesn't like essays, he might not find it's such low hanging fruit in the epq

Not sure this is helpful, but

Dd did maths physics chemistry. Wasn't allowed to do fm as she only got an A at gcse ( even though that was year 9).
She was predicted AAA, and got BBB having crashed out of her last few exams due to major family bereavement. She also did a very relevant EPQ and got A*.
She got her first choice of engineering degree even though her offer was AAA.
The tutors at the chosen University when asked said fm was good but not essential as they recap a lot of maths in first year. Fingers crossed she will find this ok.

Taking FM as a fourth A level used to help ensure a better grade in maths, partly because you could giggle the papers around a bit so some of the better marks counted against the Maths (DS explained it once, but I did not understand and I am not sure it still applies) and because by taking more advanced papers the standard maths feels easier.

DS took double and DD took single. She is probably the better mathematician but it was still uncertain going into the exams whether she would get the A*, whereas he, albeit in AS days, was pretty confident. (FM was a whole different question but it did not count towards his offer.) DD also found that A level maths was more interesting than GCSE. I think she regretted not taking the double.

Maybe he could do both. He could do the EPQ in the summer holidays. DD1 did hers pretty quickly and got an A* (good referencing probably helped). If it really is a choice of one or the other, I suppose it would depend upon whether he is likely to want to attend one of the unis that offers a grade discount for the EPQ.

DD2 and I went to an Open Day at Southampton and the engineering students there said that FM isn't that important because they spend the first year doing lots of maths so that everyone is at the same level. However, we didn't ask the tutors what they think about FM. Southampton made it very clear that they favour applicants with an EPQ.

Southampton made it very clear that they favour applicants with an EPQ.

Engineering or physics?

(As an academic in these areas I would say that FM is extremely useful. Also bear in mind that the level of maths taught for engineering is lower than the level taught for physics.)

Definitely further maths.

I would say definitely FM and then also EPQ if able to cope.

For clever mathematicians FM isn't a lot more on top of Maths.
My DC was advised the EPQ as well because he wasn't very good in interviews and it gave him something to talk about that he was confident. Didn't know it gave a grade discount, but good to have in that case. Remember you get to choose your own topic so it can be something you really love studying.

Southampton were offering BBB for physics in clearing this year.

My DS is doing FM. He will be applying for physics courses. He wasn't going to do an EPQ but is doing one over the summer holidays before year 13. It has been a lot of work but will give him something extra to put on his personal statement and talk about at any interviews.

He doesn't have as many FM lessons as the other subjects.

I don't think there are a lot of universities that are offering reductions for EPQ. Southampton springs to mind. The EPQ grade has to be A* or A. It is worth asking the school what their EPQ grades have been, to see if a top grade is likely.

The EPQ is a great thing to do.