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Secondary education

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Admissions criteria- disability discrimination?

50 replies

verystressedmum · 27/08/2017 19:10

Ds is 17 and wasn't able to start yr 12 last September because of cancer. In full remission now (thankfully) and wants to go back to A level- at another school to the one where did GSCEs.

They have said their admissions criteria is that they only admit yr 11 school leavers to yr 12 and the board of governors will say no to an older child (by 1 year) to start yr 12.

If she was a yr 11 leaver there would be problem...however the problem is that she wasn't able to be a yr 11 leaver applying to start yr 12 because she was having cancer treatment!

Cancer is a defined disability and is protected under the equality act, and from what I've read of the legislation the admissions criteria is therefore discriminatory. Waiting to hear back from the board of governors but just wanted a bit of advice if anyone knows.
Thank you

OP posts:
TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince · 30/08/2017 17:05

"A child with cancer is someone most teachers will strenuously avoid"

What a load of crap! That would never ever happen in my school. I've had them with anorexia, depression, genetic diseases. You name it. They have absolutely all been supported to the fullest. We have bent over backwards to help.

This is in an Osfsted outstanding school.

Ttbb · 30/08/2017 17:07

Might as well write them a stern letter/threaten to sell the story to the Daily Mail. Might work.

Copperbeech33 · 30/08/2017 17:07

I know its not nice, but I am telling you as it actually is, and specifically enrolling for year 12.

why else do you think the OP is having trouble? there is no reason at all why a 17 year old should not enrol on y12, in some of my y12 classes, half have been 17

Copperbeech33 · 30/08/2017 17:10

Might as well write them a stern letter/threaten to sell the story to the Daily Mail. Might work.

I actually think the chair of governors first, the child is being turned away in his/her name, and they might be totally unaware of it. I don't think the daily mail is particularly constructive move. Local MP first.

it is quite urgent though, as year 12 starts in a few days.

Ttbb · 30/08/2017 17:14

People usually back down when I pull out the DM card. Somehow tabloids seem to have more authority than parliament these days

Copperbeech33 · 30/08/2017 17:15

well, what ever works.

TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince · 30/08/2017 17:17

But it isn't as it is! It would never happen in my place!

Copperbeech33 · 30/08/2017 17:30

But it isn't as it is! It would never happen in my place!

well, it happens at mine. And it clearly happens at other places too, because the school I am thinking of specifically takes those turned away from their secondary schools, and not allowed into the sixth form, and that does include quite a large proportion of children with cancer, I am not talking vast numbers, but one or two a year, more than you would expect on average.

Copperbeech33 · 30/08/2017 17:30

I am not saying it should happen, I am just saying it does happen.

TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince · 30/08/2017 18:24

That's just appalling!😵

Copperbeech33 · 30/08/2017 18:29

yes it is.

verystressedmum · 31/08/2017 00:31

Thanks for the replies sorry I've not been back til now it's been a hectic day!
Well there's been success the school have accepted her!!

I'm very pleased as my dd is pleased and that's all that matters.

The head of sixth is actually very nice and I think her hands were tied at that time. And I think they understand the situation so it won't come as too much of a shock when I approach them with her needs.
There was a certain criteria and in different circumstances I would have been accepting of these criteria and moved on, but this situation was a bit different I felt. I'm just glad it's turned out ok so far.

I didn't think about the effect on teachers statistics etc and I suppose that makes sense but ultimately (although I wouldn't want anyone's job to be in jeopardy) that's not my main concern. A child who has cancer has just as much right to an education as any child and thankfully there are laws for this.
Although of course I get it that a child with an illness that means they will miss school they will need different considerations etc but surely if a teachers statistics are brought down by this situation there will be allowances made?

I don't think we would have been going to the DM..I can just see me and (mortified beyond belief) teenager in the photos with our sad faces on Grin

Thank you I got some great advice here and luckily it turned out ok!

OP posts:
verystressedmum · 31/08/2017 00:35

Although..one of my friends was an A level teacher (at another local school) and she said this would never be a problem she's taught many children will serious health problems and never once mentioned her statistics or job security..and believe me she would mention it if it was an issue so maybe it's an issue in some school but not others.

OP posts:
Copperbeech33 · 31/08/2017 00:51

yes, it is probably an issue in some schools more than others, no, absolutely no allowances are made in the teachers statistics, it is just a number, nothing else, and if it is the wrong number you've had it.

I'm very glad she has been accepted.

Copperbeech33 · 31/08/2017 00:55

A child who has cancer has just as much right to an education as any child

yes, of course they do, it just that is not always how it works out in practice, with league tables, performance related pay, and redundancies, etc.

It is illegal to refuse a child a school place because they have cancer, but it will still happen if the school can get away with it. It doesn't have to be official or school policy, but every individual teacher when approached to accept the child onto their register might find an excuse to say no, that is most often how it works.

In other circumstances and with other health conditions too, of course, but particularly so with cancer.

verystressedmum · 31/08/2017 01:14

every individual teacher when approached to accept the child onto their register might find an excuse to say no,

Eh? Is that how schools work that the teachers decide if they want the child or not and if not they can't go into the class?

I thought a child is accepted by the head or board or whatever and they are placed into a particular year group and class and do the subjects they pick.

My dd was just asked what subjects she wanted to do and that was that.

OP posts:
Copperbeech33 · 31/08/2017 01:25

not for year 12, it is different, they have to approach different departments, and apply for a place on A levels, or other courses. If it is just a transfer up the school from year 11, this will most likely be done on paper, and you don't necessarily have to enrol with each teacher separately.

Of course individuals can be over ruled by their department heads, and department heads can be over ruled by SMT, but generally the teachers get to say yes or no.

BubblesBuddy · 31/08/2017 02:21

I am utterly bewildered by some of these comments. Nearly every school I know and have worked with takes children who have SEN, complex medical histories and occasionally prolonged absences. It is utter rubbish to say they are turned away on a teacher's whim. Schools can ask for certain grades but not turn away qualified children because of medical issues. Never is that permissible. It would be very harsh not to have taken your DD. I am so glad she has a place.

No teacher ever had performance management difficulties due to ill children in the school. All such data is crawled over and the odd child who pulls data down because of illness is excluded from the data for performance management. Worrying about Mortgage payments due to accepting an ill child? This is total hyperbole.

I just wondered what work the LA had provided for your DD. They were obliged to. They should have liaised with the school regarding 6th form and reintegration. Did they help?

Copperbeech33 · 31/08/2017 09:45

Never is that permissible.

it isn't permissible, no, I didn't say it was permissible, but it happens all the time. But as I said, there is no justifiable explanation a teacher can give, so a little bit of gentle persistence from the parent is probably all it will take to get the child in, and once they are in there is not going to be any problem from the staff.

No teacher ever had performance management difficulties due to ill children in the school. All such data is crawled over and the odd child who pulls data down because of illness is excluded from the data for performance management. Worrying about Mortgage payments due to accepting an ill child? This is total hyperbole.

This is just total ignorance. It may work like that in some schools, but not others, in fact the school I have just left was in such dire financial straights that the lowest scoring department out of three or four creative departments was going to be closed. The department with the lowest number, no child will be excluded from the data, no explanations or reasons excepted, simply the number at the bottom of the balance sheet, that department will accept no further year 10 or year 12 students this year, and will close next year. If it is music or drama, that will be about 10 staff redundant. For this academic year they will be teaching partly outside their subject, as the department contracts, then next year gone.That is the reality.

I once lost my job because my year 9 class did not make an average of two sublevels of progress in their Sats ( this was a few years ago- but it illustrates the point) several of these children had degenerative conditions, they were terminally ill with conditions that meant their cognitive ability was declining. That was irrelevant, they were not excluded from the data.

In the school I am talking about I taught BTEC and GCSE in year 12 and 13. I was told to "give" a child with cancer a distinction. She had not done the distinction tasks, I gave her a merit. I was put into capability for this. Fortunately I didn't care! ( which was why my colleagues had passed that particular child on to me anyway, because I was the one who didn't care, and had taken such children before)

It wasn't just the child with cancer ( who completed the course) It was my retention rate too. Two children had dropped out. One was going on week long alcoholic binges with his uncle, the other had been accepted onto an apprenticeship. I knew he was applying for the apprenticeship when he enrolled, he told me I was a back up in case he was turned down. Technically, I should have rejected him, but it was not in his interests to do so, because he might have needed the back up!

Which of these three children would you have rejected? The alcoholic? the child with cancer or the child with other plans? I failed two consecutive targets because one child was in one class one year, and two were in the next class the next year, so I lost my job - I didn't care much.

That is not an unusual situation, and I am far from the only person in my circle that has had this experience.

Bubbles buddy, I think you are talking about totally different scenarios. For a start, up to Y11 a teacher cannot turn a child away anyway, that happens in Y12. Also children who have always had SEN, complex medical histories or absences are not really an issue, as if it affects their education, they will already have lower targets. The problem is someone who gets a target set on the basis of their performance in year 11, then gets cancer, and is unlikely to meet their target, and might even drop out of the course.

TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince · 31/08/2017 09:58

Copper, l find that your experience is the total opposite of mine.

We accept anyone because we are an inclusive school
I have never been asked who l want in my class, l teach whoever turns up. I have no say.
With regards to accountability, if a child is ill or disabled they are not included in performance capability, although they will be included school performance.

I find your experience so polarised from mine that a wonder if we are on the same profession. I've never heard anything like the stuff you talk about.

TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince · 31/08/2017 10:00

If this is seriously how your school operate, then l think it needs addressing. Although l don't know who from. The LEA? Ofsted?

All education is meant to be inclusive, and your school are clearly not complying with that.

Copperbeech33 · 31/08/2017 10:00

are you in a sixth form?

TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince · 31/08/2017 13:07

Yeah l teach in a comprehensive. We have loads of 6th formers who have problems. None of them are ever turned away unless it's for drugs or something.

It's an OFsted outstanding school so they must be doing something right. I don't see how your school can be so discriminatory in a inclusive school. There's plenty who bring our grades down but they are still entitled to an education surely?

TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince · 31/08/2017 13:10

I've just re read your last post😵😵😵I don't know what to say☹️What a terrible and twisted situation😟

TooSweetForSugar · 31/08/2017 18:39

That is absolutely shocking. I think the issue is wider than just cancer, but discrimination of additional issues in general and needs to have a spotlight shone on it

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