'top' independent schools are turning towards Btecs - article in the Times

[Showandtell]

The number turning towards BTECS and apprenticeships has doubled. Universities are no longer the best choice for many as they have devalued by lowering entry standards. Interesting.

If btecs are really equivalent why is it that not traditionally academic kids are sheared that way/grammar schools don't do them etc ...

Yes but for an aspiring professional dancer/actor it's easier to get DDD btec when you may already be beyond that standard in your chosen genre than if you are a student who had decided to do A levels alongside their dance/drama classes.

Dd aged 15 already has Level 3 qualifications in dance & drama (76 ucas points on the new scale).

I'm not saying btec are easier per se. Btec are tough, but for those who choose to keep a more academic route for a bit longer in order to get a more rounded education & who will be working beyond btec level in their extra curricular classes, the system can be disadvantageous for an institution who claim to be trying to find the most talented students capable of a career in the performing arts, not who can pass a certain type of exam.

rosie and pizza

Im getting confused by that as well

alexander

Both boys will do A levels as thats what appears to be needed for their chosen careers

Dd wants to act so i think a Mix of BTEC and A level will be better for her

Kids getting D, D are no way the equal of A, A kids

Lots of universities don't seem to agree.

I dont know an awful lot about BTEC but its more vocational courses and you can only take a relevant course at degree level

Is that right

Ds1 is doing history so would still have needed the A level i guess

Yes you could only get into a relevant degree ie sport studies, nursing etc

Thanks show

I have honestly looked into it for dd.....but my minds a sieve

Showandtell, that is why BTECs are not accepted for medicine, vet, dentisitry for eg. Why my pal who is admissions tutuor for biological sciences at a russell group is getting less and less keen on taking BTEC kids.
For lesser unis the students have the power so of course they will get get accepted onto eg photography with media studies or whatever.

who is admissions tutuor for biological sciences at a russell group is getting less and less keen on taking BTEC kids.
For lesser unis the students have the power so of course they will get get accepted onto eg photography with media studies or whatever

You sound as if you have no idea what you are talking about.

BTECS have never been accepted for medicine.

BTECS are accepted for a lot more than 'photography and media studies' - how snobby and ill informed of you.

Amazing how so many people on mumsnet have friends who are admissions tutors

In fact a quick Google shows that Liverpool and kings are accepting them for entry into biological sciences.

A Btec diploma is the equivalent of 3 alevels therefore studying one subject at that level means that the content is much broader and detailed than the standalone alevel.

The content and skills a Btec student has does generally mean they cope well at uni because they are able to do extended projects, research and apply skills having had more practice than the academia of the a level. Obviously this is subject dependant.

The issue Btec have had is that many schools took it on as an easy option and taught it badly but the end qual was the same for those who had been taught it well (as a general rule the colleges and a few good schools did it well and most schools badly) so over the years more and more rubbish students appeared at uni.

Previously, learners could resubmit a piece of. Work repeatedly, it would be a fail and 5-6 submissions later be a distinction - yet realistically for those students, it wasn't their work, they may have written it but it's the teachers work. And this was really obvious once they got to uni with a ddd and they weren't. The new rules (whilst are infuriating) have meant the new specs and programmes are much more robust and the learners coming out are better equipped to be appealable to uni again so many private schools are offering them.

Shoeandtell, it is You who sound if you have no idea what you are talking about.
In one breath you are arguing that D star kids are the academic equal of A star kids, the next you agree they are no good for access to academic courses 🤔
You are describing your experience as a parent of one dc, I am coming at it from a teacher of many many young people each year ( as well as a parent)
My friend is at neither liverpool or kings, well done on finding 2 of the very few decent unis that will take BTECs.

Or else you work at Ethelburgas and are trying ting to justify your stance😀🤣

Lots of excellent unis accept btecs in lieu of a levels. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. And thanks for the "well done' - I found the unis by googling biomedical science and they were the first two that came up! My friends son has just got into Birmingham with a Btec also. On fact other than oxbridge and medicine I can't find many science based courses where they aren't accepted.

Queen Ethelburga's is one of the 'top' schools mentioned in the article. They seem to be making the distinction between a 'more academic' route leading to A levels and a BTEC route for 'a wider range of abilities'. Pupils are spilt between 'College' (A levels) or 'Faculty' (BTEC/A levels) based on Midyis scores at age 14. There are higher GCSE requirements for the 'College' as well;

www.qe.org/the-college-or-faculty/

A quote (The Guardian 2015) from Prof Alison Wolf, an expert on education and skills from Kings’ College London,

"Essentially, we’ve got a higher education sector which has got a shrinking group of 17- and 18-year-olds and with universities trying to expand undergraduate numbers it is generally easier for people with BTecs than it was a few years ago,” she says. “But do they see them as exactly the same? No, they mostly don’t. Talk to schools and teachers and they will say their experience is that different students take the different routes. If they were identical, you wouldn’t need them both.”

LOL! So basically the difference is snobbery. They'll let them in but 'think of them differently'

I agree BTECS and A Levels measure different ways of learning. One is not superior to the other.

One is not superior to the other

Although one appears to have a far higher non continuation rate than the other for UK domiciled stidents. Although no doubt other factors come into play when it comes to non continuation and the reality is rather more nuanced than the top level figures suggest.

www.hesa.ac.uk/data-and-analysis/students/overviews?keyword=589&breakdown%5B%5D=579&year=2

From the table T3A, and zip file SN1 overall non continuation rate 6.0%; for BTECS 11.5%;

There is some variation by subject, but even then the smallest gap still has the BTEC non continuation rate at 30% higher than the overall - this is for the mass communications and documentation subject area where overall non continuation is 7.3% and BTEC 9.8%

Somewhat off tangent - the IB non continuation rate is a fair bit higher than high A level tariff (AAA or AAB) students.

I can imagine a uni degree might seem frustrating if you are used to a more vocational level 3 course.

The difference is not snobbery, it is considerably easier to get D in applied science, than an A in eg biology. This is why QE, along with every other school has much lower entry requirements for the BTEC courses, it is why they transfer everyone who is not on a B at the end of year 12 onto a BTEC, it is why schools set different, and higher entry levels for A levels vs BTEC. It is a ridiculous parental snobbery to insist the two are equal. BTECS serve a purpose in providing level 3 qualifications for the less academically able, they are not of equivalent academic rigour.
The photo shows entry requirements from a very large school sixth form in my county. If BTECs and A levels were genuinely equla, then surely the entry levels would be tthe same.

Rosies experience is the same as I've seen. Academic 6th forms do A levels, btecs exist for those perusing a non academic route or can't make the grade. You don't tend to suggest btecs to a grade students.

I'm curious that it would seem easier to get into uni with a btec.

This is all very interesting. The unis I have contacted say that they accept grade 3 btec qualifications. UCAS points are the same for a D btec or an A a level. Not sure where the difference is?

If you have an academic child who wants to study an academic subject at uni and enjoys school then I think it's probably most appropriate to do A levels. However, Btec level 3 are equivalent, no ifs or buts so for many subjects they really are a better option even for academically able DC. For example art, design, drama or musical theatre and many others. Many colleges offer a Btec with an A level although this would require dedication and commitment from the student to fit it all in and achieve good grades. Don't dismiss btecs as an option - I agree with showandtell they are just measure a different way of learning and actually this is seen as preferable in some subjects eg art where A level students usually need to do a further foundation but Btec students do not. I have 3 DC who all went to state grammar schools. All 3 could have taken A levels, two chose btecs other is off to 6th form to study maths/ science. Eldest is at first choice uni for art, second has D D D* which will make applying for first choice uni for musical theatre a possibility. To be honest just choose the most suitable route if you have an idea of the destination. I know of someone who got offered the holy grail place at GSA but didn't make the A level grades. Btec would have been the better approach. Btec are not inferior just a different option and very much worth considering. In fact although colleges often don't do this, outside qualifications and experience can be put forward for btec modules eg ballet / dance exams.

Only lower ranking universities offer on UCAS points though, so they are happy with BTec. BTecs are good for more practical subjects although DD did A level Art and A level Photography and went to her first choice university. It makes little difference to art schools and many like a Foundation year anyway.

Around here, the state grammar schools do not offer Btecs. The best Engineering degrees (MEng) are still best accessed via A Levels not BTec. It all depends on level of course, type of course and how you like studying.