Grammar or Comprehensive Scholarship - help please !

[ReneeLara]

We live in a borough bordering London/Surrey, with 5 Grammar Schools (3 all boys and 2 all girls) and several very good Comprehensives schools with selective options for specific aptitudes. Both of the girls Grammars were ranked in the top 15 selective state schools in the country for GCSE results for 2016.
My Daughter passed all selective options open to her in the borough, including the 11 plus, all 3 aptitudes (Music, Dance and Drama) for an 'outstanding' mixed Comprehensive with aptitude places for Performing Arts and also a Scholarship in Music for a very good all girls Comprehensive also with Arts status.
Guided by the local authority, we received 2 offers when the offers came out - a place at one of the Grammar schools and the Scholarship in Music at the all girls Comprehensive- which she has chosen. She is very excited about the Music and Arts opportunities she will access from September and she is confident that she can achieve the same academically as she would at the Grammar schools.
We however, were - and still are - very torn as to whether we should have made that decision for her ? She is very good at the Arts subjects, but she is also academically very strong and reads avidly. She has said from a young age that she wants to study English Literature at a top university and then Acting.
We suspect that because the Grammar waiting lists are ranked from the 11 plus score, that (even with only a few weeks to go), she could still be offered a place if we were to put her on the waiting list.

We are really agonising over this and in light of the recent BBC revelations about salaries and the disproportionate amount of 'top positions' occupied by either Private or Grammar school educated people, even more so !
My Daughter has said that she wants to wake up in the morning and think "oh great, school", so it seems to be a choice between her enjoying what she's doing day to day, against what what we feel might be more advantageous to her in life.
Thank you for reading this any thoughts or opinions would be greatly appreciated.
A very worried parent !
RL

I may be totally out here but I think when they're talking about dominance of private and grammars it's mainly those people whose parents or family friends know a friend or a connection that helps them get a foot in the door.
Unless you're that type of parents networking for your child's career type then I'm not entirely convinced that a great comprehensive with aptitude places is going to be any different than grammar in terms of what's offered to your child.

Having worked in high performing comprehensives (and went to a great non selective school), I'll honestly say that academic kids with supportive parents do well. Maybe not as well as slightly average kids with parental deep pockets and social connections, but they do well.

I think your DC buying into their choice is a big thing. You sound very balanced and sensible so don't doubt yourself.

Your daughter has it right and your worry is a false dichotomy

"...it seems to be a choice between her enjoying what she's doing day to day, against what what we feel might be more advantageous to her in life."

MaisyPops,

I do not understand your sentence with 'slightly average' in it.

Too tired to type properly tonight it would seem.

Basically, it's possible to get far in life if you're an average kid but your parents have deep pockets and good connections e.g. Lots of tutors, funds to support you through lots of unpaid internships (which really are jobs but they call them internships with travel expenses only rather than pay someone minimum wage for an entry level job), someone who can get you work experience in order for you to network etc.

A bright kid in a decent school (comp or grammar) is more than capable of doing well in life. They may not get as far as 'average but we'll financed and connected kid', but they go on to be successful.

It makes me think of someone I know who has zero qualifications or experience in an area really but got a couple of sought after internships because mum's friend knew someone and they met up for coffee and suddenly voila suddenly seem experience turns up that would be closed off to those who lack the social network.

*and suddenly voila seem experience turns up that would be closed off to those who lack the social network.

Time for me.to log off soon I think.

Is your daughter very keen to go to the comprehensive? If she is then I think you need a very strong reason to override her choice - just saying "grammar must be better because it's grammar" probably isn't going to cut it. Rather than making it grammar v comp you need to make it "X school" or "Y School". What are the specific reasons you would give her for overriding her choice of Y school over X?

Both private and grammar schools draw pupils disproportionately from the more advantaged. This doesn't mean that everyone there is filthy rich but when you're looking at averages this is obviously going to make a fair comparison with comprehensives difficult. Even the most socially exclusive comps take more disadvantaged pupils than the average grammar or private.

My dd won a place at an academically selective private school & abursary place at a specialist dance/performing arts school.

She is so so much happier at the dance school, doing what she loves.

Ds had such a bad time at the selective school that we are moving him.

Thank you all so much for your feedback !
We have considered all of those points and we have allowed her to make her own choice - but it hasn't stoped us from worrying whether it is the right choice ?!
I understand the issue of the statistics surrounding Private and Grammar school intakes - and it's true that all of the 6 children in my Daughter's Primary school who passed the 11 plus were tutored - including my Daughter. She also has Piano, Ballet and Drama/Singing classes, which undoubtedly contributed to her being offered the Scholarship in Music.
HPFA...
Yes my Daughter is keen to go the Comprehensive, because feels that the Music Scholarship programme that she will be on, will bring her advantages (as far as the Arts are concerned anyway), that she wouldn't get at the Grammar school.
We did essentially do what you said in terms X school vs Y school and in truth the only advantages we could come up with were the very prestigious school name on her future cv and (possibly) less disruption in class.
That was also a very interesting point you made about the difficulty of comparison between schools due to the advantaged backgrounds of most Private/Grammar school children. The Deputy Head of the Comprehensive concerned, made a very interesting point that the 27% of their school that achieved A/A at GCSE last year, is as good, if not better than the 80% that achieved A/A at the Grammar school concerned - his rationale being that 27% of their school, is virtually 100% of the children that they have in that academic band - whereas at age 11, all of the children entering the Grammar school were capable of getting A*/A - but only 80% did so...
There are obviously debates that could be had around that, but I certainly hadn't looked at it that way before..
AlexanderHamilton..
That's very interesting about your child and congratulations to her ! We have now heard of several instances of children been taken out of Grammar schools due to being unhappy. One close friend also took his Daughter out of a Grammar school in the High Wycombe area and one of our 'guides' at an open evening for another school last year, had left the very Grammar school concerned to go the (Comprehensive) school we were visiting that evening !
Actually my Daughter doesn't think she'd be unhappy though - in fact she liked the school. She just thinks that it would taking her in one direction only (academia), as there is no Dance at all, and although there is lots of Music, there's also lots of children playing instruments - so yet more competition on top of the academic competition. She feels that with the amount of Music, Dance and Drama available to her where she's chosen to go, (with guaranteed advantages in Music/Musical Theatre performances due to the Scholarship), combined with her belief that she can achieve equally well academically, that both pathways, Arts and Academia will be kept open to her.

TheFrendo..
You may very well be right that it's a false dichotomy ! As I said in my first post, my Daughter has said that she feels she will "thrive" (her own word) and do better academically if she has other things she truly enjoys to balance her day to day school life. To be honest, it's mainly other parents who think we are crazy for giving her additional opportunities (tutoring) to gain entry to a prestigious Grammar school and then letting choose not to go there ! That, added to as I said in y first post, the recent extensive press recently about the life advatanges that the remaining 100 something Grammar schools bring.
MaisyPops..
I understand what you were saying - even if you were typing late at night - for which I thank you very much !
I have been told this before about Grammar's having influential contacts for access to 'notable internships' etc. I don't know how true this is..?
Obviously as parents, like everyone on here, we just want the best for our children and I am aware that a child's happiness and wellbeing is more important than going the 'right school'. I have heard of several instances of the pressure being so great at the Grammar school concerned that girls have developed eating disorders and so on. My Daughter feels she will deal with academic pressure better if she has as bslanced day.
As it stands we have let her choose. She is the only child in her school to have passed the 11 plus, received an offer from one the 2 Grammar schools available to her - and declined it !
I suppose I'm looking for reassurance that we are helping her and not depriving her of something, by not making the decision for her ?!
Thank you to everyone who has replied, your thoughts were very gratefully received !
RL

It is not true that 100% at grammars should get all A and A* in every subject because some children will have weaker subjects. That's normal unless it is uber selective! You should look at the progress 8 data for both schools because results mean little with wildly different prior attainment. If a bright child has few bright children to work with, they can coast and probably fewer children at the comp are musical. Bright children tend to be better at music. Having said that, I was keen for my DDs to go to a school they liked.

Very good point BubblesBuddy, thank you very much..
RL

Let her choose. Both options sound great and you sound like supportive parents .

Your daughter sounds amazingly switched on and sensible.
The comprehensive seems to offer what she wants and feels she needs. With her great reasoning skills - trust her I think.
Hope she enjoys her new school!

Cause and correlation.

Those kind of people from those kind of families would always do well, but have clustered themselves in grammar schools. Older than 60, everyone who progressed to Uni (pretty much) had been to a grammar.

Your Dd is very bright. As long as she is in a competent school and works at the required level with the necessary diligence, she will do very well!

Top selective Grammars results simply reflect the ability of the intake. And in Sutton (for example) tne Grammars are 'super selective ' so take the top entrants from miles and miles around. No wonder the results are good.

Your Dd will be in top sets with other bright kids.

Her own engagement with her education is KEY. Let her follow her choice.

My DS turned down a scholarship at Habs for local v. good comp. Never regretted it for a moment. Quids in, still top uni and a lot less pressure along the way.

It sounds DS as though a comprehensive with high achieving pupils and a strong emphasis on the arts is just right for your daughter. One of my best friends at my grammar school was very clever academically and also a very promising artist. The school refused to let her take A-level art because they wanted her to apply for modern languages at Oxford. She did what they wanted in terms of A-levels but instead of applying to Oxford, or indeed any university, she went to the local FE college to take art and from then went on to study art and become a graphic designer.

A school with a strong academic focus doesn't necessarily meet the needs of all the brightest pupils.

From your comments I think you are probably in the same south London / surrey area as me! We are going the 11+ route but don't have any special aptitude for other options. If the non grammar you have been offered is Glenthorne then I have only heard really good things about it. It's not an option for us as out of catchment and no chance of a skills based place.

Apologies didn't read it properly. Just realised you said all girls so not Glenthorne.

The Comp is mixed, TooMsnyCats. (I think). Which is another plus, if that is what she wants.