DD (Year 8) really cannot do maths - what happens?

[pasanda]

My dd is in year 8 and next week has exams.

She is SO not academic (also dyslexic). She struggles hugely with science and the like, does better in english and geography, but absolutely HATES maths. Because she can't do it

Her Year 7 maths teacher kind of threw his hands in the air at parents evening (towards the end of the year last year) and basically said he had tried all the methods of teaching he could with her, but at the end of the day, 'he couldn't teach her'

Year 8 teacher just before Easter holidays said she might get a Level 1/2 in her GCSE's if she continues at the level she is now.

She does have a private maths tutor for an hour a week who has found methods to teach her which she does understand. But I can't help worry that an hour a week of maths is never going to get her anywhere!

She is in the bottom set for maths and is one of 5 students taken out of class for extra help with a TA. She likes this TA and says she understands it when she teaches her. Apart from that I can't see anything that her (highly academic) school are doing to help her.

To be quite honest, I don't particularly care if she fails maths. For her it seems to be like wading through treacle and if that is the way she is, so be it. She can't help it and to push and push her over something she literally cannot do seems unfair.

However, does anyone know of any websites that might be geared to the lower ability dc? Anything? What should I do do you think? (I just said I don't really care, but as a mum, I do really, I just don't want to stress her out!)

TIA

Does she have dyscaclulia? What support is in place for her dyslexia?

My dd is dyscalculic but if she is given a calculator and / or a table square she can actually do maths. She finds arithmetic much more difficult than maths (algebra / geometry etc) which is weird to me!
Can you go over the maths done at school on a daily basis? I have found this really helps my dd - I can explain how to do things in several different ways and she usually gets it eventually.
Also - dd is allowed to use a calculator in exams even in non calculator papers because she has dyscalculia. Would this make a difference? She is also taken into a different class with a scribe for exams and gets extra time which all helps hugely.

Sorry, but it sounds like the maths teacher isn't very good if he can't take the level down low enough for your DD. With maths it really is a case of working out where the pupils are at and building on from their knowledge. Provided your DD has a good attitude, there's no excuse for not being able to teach her.

One of my DCs is dyslexic and had a series of mediocre and downright awful maths teachers at school from year 5 to 10 - that's a long time! At Xmas in year 10 we realized he was not going to pass GCSE. So we engaged a tutor for an hour each week for the rest of year 10 and all of year 11. He had to take the level right down at first, but taught in a direct, logical way that was quite different to the airy fairy way of the school. After a year and a half of being tutored, he was rewarded with an A at GCSE.

Are you able to continue with/increase the tutor hours? And just a thought... maybe try a primary school teacher as a tutor? Good luck :-)

Wow Molly! That is amazing progress. Concrete > Pictoral>Symbolic might help: use things to do the operation first, once they are happy with that, then move on to pictures and only then with numbers.

You said the school is highly academic. Would she not be more suited to a private or state school that caters for all abilities?

DD2 is dyslexic and not great at maths. I got her a tutor and she scraped a low pass in GCSE. I have serious dyscalculia and can't even count correctly on a calculator at times. If your DD is getting on well with the TA and tutor, that should give her a pretty good shot at the exam.

My problem is that I cannot retain how to do the various different calculations if I am not doing them all the time. That didn't help during exams and I have no maths qualifications at all and that includes arithmetic, yet I can still recite times tables. Good luck.

Thanks for the replies.

I would happily go over the maths she has done at school with her but she is totally against the idea of any help from me. The best I can do is print out resources for her to learn from but any direct involvement is met with resistance!

She hasn't got a particularly good work ethic. Hates school and finds it boring and difficult. So her current attitude does not help the situation at all. Couple that with being 13 and stroppy it's going to be a long slog I think!

TBH all her other teachers are happy with her work. WRT her dyslexia - although she can read and is quite good at english (although terrible at spelling), her problems start when she has to look up things on the internet and is presented with a screen full of words and information that she just doesn't understand. She then switches off.

Mollly - that is such amazing progress! I think we will probably have to increase the tutor hours into years 10 & 11 as she is amazing with her and dd says she understands it when she explains the concepts to her. Her ability to hold on to that knowledge is lacking though. Her short term memory is bad and as she puts it she has a 'brain like a sieve - everything just falls out again' Her tutor doesn't think she has dyscalculia but I'm not so sure to be honest. Although the tutor is a specialist in learning difficulties and has been the one to do an assessment on her (at great expense!!) so we can see where her problems really lie.

TheNumber - I haven't heard of that - I will look it up as it sounds like it might help her.

Re changing schools she would absolutely hate the idea of doing this. She was the only one from her primary to go to this school and took a while to find her group of friends and fit in. She would be extremely resistant to the idea of doing that again I think. Also, can't afford private and although it is an academic school, it is also a very good school so I think I am going to have to be a bit more proactive with them. I did ask for her not to ever have the Year 7 teacher again though. There must be someone there who can get in to her brain!!

My DN had SPLD, undiagnosed. In my country, it's not so advanced to recognise each children's needs. My DSis seeked out every opportunity to find a good tutor for him.In my native country, every child takes entrance exam for high school(16+), so he spent last year of his Junior High literally in the tutor's house after school. He made a massive progress and passed exam to school he wanted to go.
My Dsis and my BIL were both very academic, but not good teacher.
So, my conclusion to this is to find good tutor who understand your dd's problem and can help.

My two-penny-worth. (Maths degree and 2 DDs with SpLD who find maths a struggle)

If you are thinking on increasing the tutor's hours, and can afford it, I would do it sooner rather than later. By the time she gets to GCSEs general workload will have increased a lot from y8. The more you can help build the foundations for maths in y8 & y9 the better.

With DD1 I did maths every summer holidays in Ks3 to keep reinforcing and to build skills / confidence. I was lucky, I have the ability to do that and DD1 was willing. I am planning to do likewise with DD2 as long as she needs it.

I agree with TheNumberFaker re concrete->pictorial->symbolic. Anything you can do with real things really helps. I found a logo board helpful for symmetry and coordinates, and obviously coins for basic numeracy (and number lines). Cooking is good for ratios. Shops are good for percentages!

You can't rush things, maths really builds on itself so if the foundations are rocky making progress is really hard. Also confidence to 'have a go' really makes a difference too.

With DD1 we had to keep repeating stuff, but each time we revisited something it took less time for her to grasp it again.

Good luck

Teen said* If you are thinking on increasing the tutor's hours, and can afford it, I would do it sooner rather than later.*

I would absolutely recommend you do this. If your DD can raise her achievement, her attitude towards maths and everything else is likely to improve. I'm aware it's expensive and you shouldn't have to pay for it. But GCSE maths and English are considered most important.

Another thing I did was to go into school towards the end of year 9 and request that DS was NOT taught by the shockingly bad teacher he had had all that year. The school obliged and the teacher he was given in year 10 was a bit better, but still not great (actually I struggled to accept this person as a maths teacher as they had previously been DS's Spanish teacher...) It was the dozens of 1:1 sessions with the private tutor that turned a predicted fail into a high grade.

Not logo board, lego board (makes much more sense now).

I agree with a suggestion above about getting a primary school level maths teacher. GCSE level 1/2 is primary school level. Trying to teach her secondary school level maths if she hasn't got even the basics will achieve nothing. She needs to go back a few years and build up skills/confidence at a much lower level, get her to a plateau with the basics and then you can start to build up again. Sounds daft, but are there any 11+ tutors in your area - such a tutor is more likely to have substantial experience working at more basic levels such as times tables, negative numbers, basic fractions, very basic algebra, and logic solving etc.

I would really pursue some of the ideas above as even the non academic kids will find that they need maths and english at a decent grade to get anywhere. I teach the over 16s who missed out and aporentice hairdressers, nursery workers, office staff etc all have to attend sessions and pass in order to complete. So, if you can possibly help her achieve whilst at school she will be much happier later.

So much KS3 maths builds on concepts learnt at Primary School, and if understanding of those is insecure, there isn't a hope of progress.

My DD also 'hates' maths but found that with regular tuition to 'fill the gaps' and revisiting tricky (i.e all the topics) for around 15 mins a day - she has a schedule of difficult topics and works through it on a cycle - she has improved and managed to even pass her end of year maths exam! This was her first 'pass' in 3 years!!

She has also had an excellent classroom teacher this year who seems to be able to give her both techniques to understand the maths better, and also revision/study skills to learn how to revise more effectively. She could always opt for Core maths at GCSE if the Extended course becomes too much, but she is currently on track to manage more than a C, which would be a crowning achievement.

Good luck to your DD and reassure her that she is certainly not alone with this struggle!

The issue I could forsee with an 11+ tutor is by definition, won't they be used to 'able' kids, so possibly less good with an unconfident struggler? However definitely use someone who isn't afraid to revisit primary level topics.

Sounds like the current tutor is doing fine though, just keep plugging away.

However, does anyone know of any websites that might be geared to the lower ability dc?

www.themathsfactor.com/ - Covers the basics of arithmetic with a lot of practise.

Mine have done it during primary school but I know there was a secondary school student at one of the awards because Carol Vordman was great with her. I have a child with a poor memory - but the practise in this has made a hugh difference there are very swift with number bonds and times tables which makes it easier for longer calculations. Little bit every day and they've gone from struggling to being years ahead.

khan academy is free and is good for explanations.

I've seen mathswhizz recommended on primary boards here.

www.conquermaths.com/ - tried this - my eldest didn't click with it but again many like it.

If algerbra an issue dragon box is fantastic.

I went to school in Florida, so a little bit different. But I have always had trouble with math. I barely was able to receive in normal diploma because in the American high school you have to take three years of math and for the normal diploma you have to pass at least algebra one. I got a C in pre-algebra and I failed algebra one twice so my final year I took algebra 1A and algebra 1B, had summer school tuition and also had very simple worksheets throughout my last year.

Strangely enough, I received the highest math score in the school on one of the Florida state tests. My math teacher said that the test was more on logic than on math . I took the exam while still at my special school, and only three students passed both the math and the writing section of the exam. I was one of the three. I still find it really strange and I think I had a lot of luck on my side as it was not a multiple-choice test.

On the other hand, I barely passed the math section on the AC T exam. I think I had a 17, which at the time was just barely a pass.

I run my own organization though and have done so for the past 10 years. I even taught myself the accounting basics I needed. Not easy, but a lot of repetition and hard work and creativity. If there is a way to put the math into daily life, it may help a bit.

Thank you so much for all these suggestions.

Gosh - I never knew GCSE level 1/2 was primary level . I am sure she will be able to do better than this and am so glad the teacher who suggested this is leaving. I do not want dd written off before she even starts Year 10!

I am really happy with her current tutor who does teach all ages from primary to adult and specialises in teaching those who find things difficult. I am definitely going to think about upping her sessions from Year 9 though.

I had a bit of a breakthrough with her last night in that she agreed that I can help her more than at present. I have told her to effectively not bother with the subjects she is going to drop (PBE, history, french) and focus on maths, english, geography and science. Allowing this to happen seems to have made her more open to putting in a bit more effort at home. It's like she is overwhelmed with the enormity of so many subjects and puts up a barrier to doing anything extra at home.

I am going to look at all the maths websites suggested and choose one that I think will suit her the best - and of course get her to look too - and encourage 15-20 mins of practice 3-4 times a week (every day is probably pushing it!)

I am also currently going through her science revision for next weeks exams and I have offered to help make revision cards etc for this. And she has agreed so major progress here too!

Thanks again for your input, I am determined she will get her GCSE at school. The thought of her having to continue with it an do retakes is horrible - she has a poster on her wall that she made saying simply:

MATH -Mental Abuse To Humans

Fantastic she is going to let you help.
Little and often is possibly better than fewer long sessions.

Start with stuff you are pretty sure she can do to build up success and confidence with you.

One trick I found works with my DDs. Say 'this might be too hard at the moment, but I just want to show you ....' Then they have the permission to not understand, and this seems to open them up more to trying to understand it.

The other thing you could do to start with is pick an easier topic, e.g. coordinates / symmetry / graphs and do stuff with that and avoid the more numerical topics. (The other one that could be good is angles and triangles).

Good luck.

Great advice Teen - thanks so much for your input. It sounds like you have been through it yourself/going through it.

Can't say I've got a maths degree (ha ha haaaaaaa ) but I did get a B in my maths GCSE so hopefully I can help Glad she will be doing Foundation though - my ds is currently in the midst of GCSE's and I couldn't even answer the first question on his higher practice paper!!!

There is hope. My DS1 is absolutely terrible at math. He is super bright in terms of IQ in excess of 140 on last formal test but has very severe processing problems he was found 10 years ago not to have dyscalcukia but I'm not convinced quantity has no meaning to him, numbers are just marks on a piece of paper, he has had weekly/twice weekly private tutoring for math since he was 7 years old. Over the years I have begged bribed and shouted in my attempt to get him to even learn the 2 5 and 10 times table, he wouldn't know an odd/even number from a atomic particle. Frankly I never thought he'd pass GCSE math. In November of yr 11 I think he got 11% in the math mock he was in the bottom set of his so called outstanding high achieving academy a set where they children were written off, half the time the teacher who was the deputy head failed to turn up half the time! My DH went on the war path he had a stand up row with the head master and he got moved up four sets to a class where children were expected not only to get a C but even a B or A. In the March of yr 11 he got a C we opened a bottle of champagne!
I don't know what changed, his new teacher was very black and white, we with him pushed the idea it doesn't matter why 7 x7 is 49 it just is, and applied this to everything, endless practice of the same questions, he learnt technique but not any understanding but who cares? He's never done math again. Job done.
Interestingly his last teacher said if he'd had him since yr 10 he might have got an A!

I do recommend khan as pp. It's a great tutorial site with through explanation and practice.
But for tutorial videos, I also highly recommend this site. It's fun to watch and very easy to understand the concepts.

www.mathantics.com/

I have the same daughter! Also very resistant to me helping and quite defeatist. In terms of getting through homework I have found you tube videos to be really helpful. Somehow a geek on YouTube is much more paletable than my explanations.

They are just random people demonstrating and talking through KS3 tasks and concepts. You can pause, rewind etc etc. They have totally helped us. Most of them film themselves actually doing the task on calculators, drawing and the workings out.

Also recommend IXL
It's a paid site but relatively cheap compared others, and can get access to all years.(Rec-yr13)
So you can work on current year group, and earlier years at the same time. Can practice without subscribing up to 10 question a day for free.