Secondary school appeal

[Sarah13579]

My daughter attends an out of area primary school which she a small school with 15 children in her class. All her friend have been offered a place at a secondary school a couple of miles away. We didn't initially apply to this school as it is massively over subscribed and I have watched kids year after year not being offered a place and losing on appeal even on Heath grounds etc. My daughter wanted to go there so much that I felt we were realistic with her from the start as if she didn't get in she would be devastated. We are looking to
Move the the area next year and felt she might have a better chance then. However since this a girl in her class who lives up the road from us has won an appeal purely because they have said it would be detrimental to move her from her peers. I am so angry and upset with myself and feel I have let my daughter down as if I knew there was the slightest chance we would have gone down this route. Since this I have spoke to the council about putting my daughters name on the waiting list for when we move and the counci said we could do a late appeal now as would be better for my daughter to try and get her a place from the start than to move her in year. I'm just worried the appeal panel will think I'm only appealing now because her friend has got in and also will they not take me seriously it being late and not putting it as a choice originally. The other reason I have for appealing is that my children go to an out of area school at the moment because I work with benefit claimants in the area we live and I would feel unsafe/awkward in certain cases mixing in the school community with some of my claimants. I'm wondering if anyone has any advice or think that these are reasonable grounds for appeal or how the appeal panel may look at it. Thanks x

I might not be fully understanding your post, but I didn't think you could appeal if you haven't applied? Because the appeal is agInst being turned down?

But if you can apply as a late applicant and then appeal, do it! The appeal panel are there ONLY to judge whether the detriment to your child in not going to the school is greater than the detriment to the school in accepting her. They are not there to speculate or judge about your motives or how it came about.

But I am quite interested to know why you didn't think it worth a long shot to put it down as first preference, knowing you would probably get your local school,

Anyway, that's beside the point

If the LA advised you to appeal, then what's to lose?

The only pitfall could be that I THINK you can only appeal to a school once in a school year, so if you applied again from your new address later in the school year, you wouldn't be able to appeal.

Hi thanks for the advice. I stupidly put it as a second choice so the council have changed my preferences so it is now my first choice. I wish I had put it as a first choice but she still would have been turned down and would have had to appeal. The secondary school is so well known for being popular and oversubscribed with even children living in the area not getting in even on appeal so this year is something different. I can't understand why 2 children I know have been given a place for no other reason that it being detrimental to move them from there peers where in other years I've seen children with disabilities and all sorts of reasons now winning the appeal. I just didn't want to put myself and my daughter through it by applying when I was adamant she didn't stand a chance but now so angry with myself for not doing

No point beating yourself up, OP, and it may be that the ones who got in on appeal did so for reasons that you are not aware of.

It sounds as if the LA are being as helpful as possible.

Hopefully someone can advise you on how best to use the issues around your job in the appeal.

Good luck!

I may have this wrong but I thought if you appeal now you are able to appeal again once the new school year starts

I may have this wrong but I thought if you appeal now you are able to appeal again once the new school year starts

I'm afraid you have got it wrong. If the OP appeals now and loses she will not be able to appeal again for a Y7 place unless circumstances change. Her next opportunity will be next year when she can appeal for a Y8 place.

I can't understand why 2 children I know have been given a place for no other reason that it being detrimental to move them from there peers

It is possible they got a particularly generous appeal panel. It is also possible that the school put up a very weak case to refuse admission. In general I would only expect an appeal on these grounds to succeed if there is evidence from a medical professional or similar to show that the child has a particularly strong need to stay with their friends.

The mum showed me the appeal letter and it was literally just about that. Should I mention this friends appeal being successful or not do you think? I don't want them to think I'm copying them and it's an after thought etc but surely they should take into consideration this information if I told them?

No, don't mention your friend's appeal. You should get the same appeal panel so they will know about it anyway. And appeals don't set precedents. Just because your friend succeeded does not mean you will succeed with the same argument. It may be, for example, that the appeal panel felt that the school's case to refuse admission was weak and they could actually handle all the pupils who were appealing without any problems. If that was the case all the appeals would succeed regardless of the strength of their individual case. Now, however, the school is already over PAN because of the previous successful appeals and the appeal panel may feel that the school will actually have some problems if it has to take any more pupils, so you would need a stronger case than your friend to get a place.

I must emphasise that this is only a possibility. You may be able to win with this argument. But I would recommend trying to strengthen your case by looking for things this school offers that are not available at the school your daughter has been allocated and that would be particularly beneficial to her. For example, if she is good at sports and the school you want has more sporting activities available to pupils that would be worth bringing up in your appeal.

Thanks for the advice. What does PAN mean please? I know 2 appeals that we're successful one of which was for my work colleagues son who again said that the panel said it would be detrimental to move them from there peers and again she appealed for her daughter some years ago who at the time had an eating disorder and medical evidence to back it up and didn't win. This is why it seems really strange this year that 2 people have got in for what seems like less of a reason. However the school tell me that a lot of appeals were rejected. My daughter loves drama and does this out of school and the school she has been offered doesn't do this as a gcse where the school we are appealing for does. Also the school we are appealing to has a 6th form and the school she has been offered doesn't. I have also been told the school we are appealing to have built 2 new classrooms and are building a further 5 however my friend was told on appeal that was to allocate the children already there. I have also read on the internet that the pupil to teacher ratio is only 18.5 which is lower than the national average so I've mentioned that as well. I'm just worried we have left it to late and there are no more places left.

PAN is the Publishec Admission Number . I. E the official number at which the school is full.

Definitely use the drama angle. Give details as to the drama she attends, whether they do shows, if she attends the theatre regularly, and keen wish to study drama at GCSE. Does the school you want have a drama club as well as teaching? Good facilities that the other school does not: a proper drama studio with proper lighting etc? To give that experience?

Although the appeal letter might refer to concern about being away from peers, there might have been some specific circumstances cited which would strengthen the reason why being away from peer would be detrimental for that child and not yours.

You mention two successful appeals, are you aware how many appeals they've received and how many failed? That could give a better indication of your chances.

I know the families well and from what I can gather that was the only reason. The school tell me hardly any got through but it's funny the only two people I know were allowed. I wondered if it would stand any ground with the job i do as well. Thing is I'm guessing I've just left it too late and they will be at the PAN now:

I wonder whether appeals are more likely to be successful this year because fewer parents made it their first choice, assuming they wouldn't get in. Also, the number of secondary aged children is falling, so perhaps it's just a small year group.

Hopefully so, it is normally a massively oversubscribed school though with even catchment children now always getting a little place. If the class size is smaller than the national average do they panel have to take that into account?

You should appeal and be relatively honest in what you say. You can say that you understood that at the time of applying that there was only a small chance of being offered a place and therefore went with the other school as first preference. You now realise that this was a mistake and therefore would like to appeal. The fact that you have a position that is likely to potentially lead you to have issues with parents is a good reason for choosing the primary school but I am not sure from you posts whether it applies still for the secondary school or not. If it could be a problem for the school that you have a place at then you can use it as a reason for the now preferred school. Most panels are quite sympathetic to similar situations but it would greatly improve your case if you could get a formal letter confirming that there will be parents of pupils who may give rise to issues.

Hi thanks for the info. The job I do just makes it awkward being out and about in the area I live and work for example when we went to the local secondary school open evening there were a couple of my claimants with there children. It is very uncomfortable for me with the job I do, I'm not saying these people are bad by any means but as there benefits can be sanctioned if they don't comply with what is expected
Of them etc it makes it very difficult for me and would rather live and work and have my children go to school in a different area. I'm not sure my employer would give me a letter stating this or not.

Hi I'm sorry to be a pain but just have another question. I put my local school as my first choice school on the original application form as I was adamant I wouldn't get the out of area school however i did put this as my second choice. Now for the reasons stated above I am appealing the school which I put as my second choice (we were offered a place at the local first choice school). The council recently changed my preferences to put the school we want to appeal as our first choice school however on the letter confirming this it states 'if an application for a school has been withdrawn this is because you have been offered a place at another school which you stated as a higher priority on the common application form. You cannot appeal this decision." So does this mean because I originally put our local school as first choice and was offered a place there and the second choice school I want to appeal has been withdrawn mean I can't appeal. Or because I have recently changed my preferences to show the school we want to appeal as first choice it is allowed. I haven't been told I can't appeal but now it says this on the letter I'm worried the council shouldn't have changed my preferences and if the appeal panel pick up on this it will be thrown out?

Their letter is confusing but the law says that you can appeal for any school you want as long as you have asked for a place at the school and you have been turned down.
I would hope that this is just a badly worded letter but what you need to do is get confirmation in writing that you have accepted and the place is still yours at the school you put down as first preference. Then you need to get from the LA confirmation in writing that you have been turned down for the new preference, that you are on their waiting list and that they have accepted your appeal document.

If you were offered the first place on your list, you really don't have anything to appeal about.

Appeals are allowed on 3 bases

• the admission arrangements haven’t been properly followed
• the admission criteria aren’t legal according to the school admissions code
• the decision to refuse your child a place wasn’t reasonable

If it doesn't meet one of these three, you will more or less automatically lose the appeal. If you chose a school higher up the list and was allocated that, the decision to refuse your child a place wasn’t unreasonable

when I rang the council to ask for my name to be put on the new preferred schools waiting list ahead of us moving the council then changed my preferences and made this my first choice school so that it was then rejected and I have had a letter stating this choice is now rejected. It's just going back to the original application and letter I recieved it did say if your second choice school was withdrawn because your first choice school was offered then you cannot appeal. However now the council have changed my preferences I'm guessing I have the right of appeal however this doesn't sound right to me. I feel that if I didn't originally put it as my first choice and I was offered my first choice school I shouldn't be able to just change my preferences late on and appeal?

Why on earth did you put it as second choice? The whole point of multiple choices is to put them in the order you actually want, safe in the knowledge that you will get a lower preference if you don't get in

If it doesn't meet one of these three, you will more or less automatically lose the appeal

That is wrong.

If this was an infant class size case those would indeed be the only grounds on which an appeal could be won. As this is a secondary school appeal it can also be won on the basis that the prejudice to the OP's child through not being admitted outweighs the prejudice to the school of having to cope with an additional pupil.