Friend renting to get a school place - WWYD?

[Lotsofsighing]

Hmm I don't really know why I'm posting this as it's highly probable I'm going to do nothing and I certainly wouldn't want to talk about it IRL, but I've just been mulling it over and was looking for expert/sensible perspectives.

My DD tells me that her friend's family are going to move house, about a mile away (we're in London) into an area that I know to be in the catchment of a very sought-after school. They own their current property, which they'd keep, and they'd move to a rented place. The borough in question has had some very high-profile cases of this being done and as a consequence has changed the wording of its admissions policy so that it now says that if you own another property then they will take this to be your permanent address even if you're living in another rented property.

I strongly feel that renting to get a school place is wrong since it means that another child is denied a place that is 'rightfully' theirs. It also seems to favour the middle-class and well informed above others. I know many others disagree and think so long as the family is genuinely living, albeit temporarily, in the rented place that's fine.

Also, where they currently live in near to a very good secondary, just not one that has quite the same prestige.

So WWYD?

a) nothing, it's none of my business

b) let them know that what they're doing is highly likely not to work. I'm not sure they're aware of the rule change. I really like these people and would rather they didn't go to all this hassle only to find it's been a waste of time and money.

c) go nuclear and report them to the council on their anonymous frauds admissions line. I don't think it makes any difference to my own dc's applications though we are slightly nearer the sought-after school and since the rule change have become much more likely to get a place (in other words, the catchment before was artificially small due to the high number of parents doing the renting-ruse - I personally know of about half a dozen).

It would kind of serve them right then if someone moves into their house (assuming they let it out) and gets into the nearby school, but they end up missing out on both...!

pepper I have a friend who works there plus my mum used to work there back in the day. My brothers went there too.

Its not spiteful to report it. People should not be doing stuff like that and as I have said above where I live there have been kids taken out of school for things like that.

Beginning with a C? This is daughters we are talking about?

As someone who lives in an area where this has gone, and seems to still go on I am angry and saddened.

There is incredible resentment in the local community to people that do it. It's quite horrible, more so as there are fewer school places than in years past. Families that do this are damning other families to heartache, financial and social difficulties. Some children may end up with no school at all, at least for a while.

If its the school I'm thinking of then its getting less popular locally as local families don't want their children to mix with the type of families that do this. Most have another option, but not all.

I have called the school fraud phone line and was incredibly stressed on the phone as I didn't really want to do what I was about to do. The staff member told me not to worry, she didn't need any details, if the family were renting out their home in London and had moved within the last year they would be found out. I couldn't in conscience so this to a friend or positive aquaintence though- the family involved had been quite nasty already.

I don't know what I'd do in your situation but in thinking less of the family I'd probably need to ask them if that is what they were planning. If it was I'd distance myself from them while being completely supportive of the girls' friendship. Probably. Eek, it's a hard one.

I'd feel too guilty if they did have the place denied knowing it was me that caused it

But surely your guilt would be better placed with the poor local child who gets denied a place because you are putting your friendship with this family first.

A genuine applicant will lose their place because this family can afford to rent. That's not on.

Your friends children already have the advantage of having involved and, presumably, reasonably well off parents they do not need the added advantage from going to the very-sought-after school.

I'd report them. I'd feel a bit shite doing it but I d get over it. I can't stand this type of dishonesty.

My friend moved house just before the deadline (entirely legitimately, they had been trying to move for ages). The council wanted evidence they had severed links with the old property (proof of sale and proof that the utilities had all been paid off and closed down).

I don't think it is wrong or mean to report this. It's nor a victimless crime. A real human being is going to be denied a place that is theirs by rights if this family gets away with their devious plan. It is also better for the children's long-term wellbeing that the parents' dishonesty should get caught. If the illegal plan is successful then a whole family full of siblings learn the lesson that if you are rich enough and dishonest enough you don't have to play by the rules. Getting caught on the other hand will help the kids to learn that honesty is the best policy, which is valuable.

Try (b) in a "by the way" sort of tone - not as a big serious 'we must sit down and talk about this' but just in passing "I heard there's more of a crackdown on people doing that and the plan may not work" but don't come over as too emotionally invested. It's not your job to be their moral compass.

If they go ahead anyway then I do not think it would be wrong to drop the council an anonymous tipoff. For the sake of the child who would otherwise be bussed across town rather than getting the local place they are entitled to, and for the sake of the children of this family who will be better off in the long run the sooner they learn that cheating is a bad idea.

If they attempt this they could end up with neither of the good schools, and your Dd's friend could end up with the undersubscribed school that no one wants. Is she a good enough friend that you would be sad to see this happen? If so, find a way to let her know about the clampdown. Especially as your dd is not the only person her dd will have told. Including children who may well live further away and so could definitely be affected.

Astro: she doesn't need to 'fight the council' in this case. The school that the family live close to is also a good school.

YouMake, yup that's the one... And they wouldn't be the first to try this ruse, but it is striking how much bigger the last-distance offered is now that they've changed the wording. It makes you realise how prevalent it must have been before.

They are genuinely nice people and I don't think they necessarily see themselves as doing anything wrong. I think people's attitudes have hardened to this and now it's seen as cheating, whereas a few years ago people I knew used to be quite open about it, 'oh you know, we did the renting thing' and nobody used to bat an eyelid. I think it's become a bit like drink-driving, once the law comes in people think about and make more of a moral judgement.

Which is why I am tempted to say something to them, casually, as I'd rather they didn't waste their money especially when the option they have is a good one.

And yes Dee, my sympathy should be with anyone defrauded. If it were my child that was defrauded, I wouldn't hesitate to ring the council which I suppose is a courtesy I should extend to a stranger.

I looked at the website today and saw the 2017 catchments for the first time. They have shrunk again, not as small as before, but shrunk.

It's our nearest secondary. I have dd. she wants to go co-ed and I want her to go co-ed but that's beside the point. I only hope the catchment for the local co-ed doesn't shrink too much or we could end up in a sticky place.

That school is not part of the community. Parents I know are really NOT sending their DDs there partly because of the type of parents it attracts. However I've seen the pain that what your friends are suggesting does to people. The breakdown of relationships, the dreadful, dreadful way it makes people behave to each other. I would say to your friend if they really want the school then sell their house and rent next to it. That is within the rules. I feel it's also desperate and a bit "up yours" to the locals but if they don't mind that then whatever. Our kids will hopefully have morals.

Tell me who they are, I'll rat on them
Seriously though of they do what they are proposing the best case scenario is the council call then before allocation day and suggest they might have made a mistake with their home address and would they like to amend it. The worst cases are they get the school but its withdrawn and they are left Ruth nothing oR the council use their owned home address but their fake preferences- again nothing.

My child has lost out of a place at our local community school due to years of people doing this- the sibling links don't help. My child's friends have lost out in the same way. Some of then were without a school for terms. One parent almost lost her child to the NR parent as the NR parent lived in am area with school places. Parents have had to give up work to get their kids to school. This is all primary but the principle is the same. Tell your friend it's wrong and they will be caught.

If the other school is the one P I'm thinking of then that's where people in the know are sending their girls now anyway.

Personally I would keep out of it. If you have a place sorted at a good school (even if it isn't at the prestigious school) it doesn't affect you and whilst it might be frustrating it is the parents choice if they decide to move to get into the school they want (even if they aren't actually moving, you don't know I guess if they will physically move or not).

And if you are hearing all of this second hand you really dont know the full story

It sounds like they might come unstuck with it anyway so you really don't need to worry.

They could waste their money.
They could end up with no decent school place (if their scam is discovered after all the places at the other local school have been allocated)
Their Dd could face the indignity of being pulled out of the playground, and being made to move schools after making her Yr 7 friendships. This happened in a borough near us (albeit primary).

I would shop someone I knew for certain had done it to get the school.

Some people would call me mean, but I've seen the other side of it. The child who didn't get in. It's not usually the shy under confident children whose parents do this ime-however if often seems to be them that miss out.
When you see a child who's struggling with the fact they are going to a different school from all their classmates because they live 3 houses away from the last one to get in. Then they think they don't need to worry about appealing because they'll be near the top-but then the school accepts all that appeal (10% of PAN) so they're not going to get in... It's not a victimless crime and why should the person who's cheated get one over the person that's honest?

B) In a casual chatty way.

B) might also be followed up by C). If the parent became belligerent/defensive/brazen when gently warned, and it became obvious they had no morals whatsoever.

I know quite a few people who took on religion for the sole of purpose of gaining a place at a better school than the local one. The ones who pretended that they had always been a follower of the religion, but didn't have time to go as often before, or any other laughable reasons just made me ... laugh.

The reality is that in most cases, their kids ended up with the same GCSE results than what was expected from their SATs as those who accepted their fate and attended to the local - very unpopular- school did.

I think most of it is about prestige, being able to say that their kids do X school which comes with a 'whow, you managed to get a place, you must be very clever/special/important/resourceful...' they are seeking rather than genuine belief that their kids' education and future will be saved as a result!

I agree, there is a lot of this;
"I think most of it is about prestige, being able to say that their kids do X school which comes with a 'whow, you managed to get a place, you must be very clever/special/important/resourceful...' they are seeking ".

But I think they also work themselves into believing that the alternative, the one they fought so hard to avoid, is actually inferior.

Outside areas where there is an actual shortage of schools / good schools, of course.

Lots of parents (including us) who are in the C catchment chose P school over C school, precisely because it isn't full of the kinds of people who would pull this sort of stunt.

Looking at the C website, they don't actually flag up the LA policy on admissions fraud, which is slightly surprising unless one assumes (cynically but not improbably) that the school are happy to turn a blind eye because a large part of how they get the results they do is by attracting disproportionate numbers of ambitious parents with the means and the ingenuity to play the system.

I think reporting is entirely reasonable tbh, but you'd need to wait until they've actually done the move rather than on the basis of hearsay. What they're doing is clearly against the rules, so they deserve to be pulled up on it.

So we have a family with female siblings where the eldest girl will start secondary school in 2019. The family own a home which would very likely get this daughter a place at Parliament Hill School for Girls: because the family is all/mostly girls and there is a sibling rule all the siblings would gain places. However the family would prefer all their daughters to go to Camden School for Girls. They are thinking of renting a property near to Camden School for Girls and not selling their own property, their current home. They are hoping that if they rent for long enough then Camden Admissions will not realise that they own their own home. They hope to get their first child into CSG and have all the siblings follow. They will keep their owned home and probably move back their once the first sibling has a place.

I'd do B) if I was their friend as I would like to think that Camden would find out and would pull them up on it but I couldn't be sure given the timeframe.

It's not actually Parliament Hill they're rejecting... suffice to say it's of similar calibre.

ie it's not as if they're escaping Stabsville Academy for the sunlit uplands of Camden. It's more swapping an ofsted 'good' for an ofsted 'outstanding' which for some reason seems to have the cachet of a swanky private school.

I would shop them without hesitation. A family at my child's primary managed to get an in year transfer into an over subscribed academic year. They don't live just a few streets out of catchment, they are the other side of town.
Online there is evidence they never moved out of their home. Lots of parents are amazed at how this family managed to get into the school.

This September when the eldest child is year 6 I shall be giving the LEA plenty of information like planning applications dated after they got the school place.
It's something that really bothers me, I have friends who have sold up to move into catchment so I can't abide cheating.

Megabeth why are you waiting until September?

peukpokicuzo,
In September they'll be applying for Secondary school so I want to give the LEA the heads up. I know the LEA is busy with appeals at the moment.
I did report them when the youngest started reception, I think that the youngest was temporarily removed from school as I saw them park in the staff car park to drop the eldest off and the mother looked very p*ed off.
The youngest was back after a week or so.

I'm assuming his place was offered to someone else but was declined so the cheater's child was allowed back.

When their oldest started part way during the reception year it was a unprecedented high birth rate year. Out of catchment siblings usually get a place but there were a few families who didn't get places for siblings.
That's why I'm particularly troubled that this family have managed to beat the system.