I know some of us have teenagers who work to capacity. But for the rest of us...

[BertrandRussell]

....when they come home and proudly tell you that they got a "top B"-or, indeed a "top" any grade- do you really never say "But with A bit more work that could have been an A"? Go on, be honest. I promise not to tell anyone

I 100% agree with what you say sendsummer

I am not slavishly devoted to my dc achieving great exam results. I still admire a rebellious streak! I didn't actually say that

I love my happy loafer but I worry for him a bit too.

"Why? Because he was trying his absolute best, and getting high B's in all subjects and his Dad and I would say brilliant, a bit more effort and it'll be an A.

We are not pushy parents. We have let all our children just get on with it, with no expectations than to do their best. Yet, we were the straws that were nearly breaking DS back. The younger two have not felt that pressure from us! Lesson learnt."
I see so may children with significant MH concerns, self harm, eating disorders, anxiety, depression, overdoses. attempt at hanging, many have complex problems but a significant number feel and fear that they have or will disappoint their parents in some way, they feel under very significant pressure to do well in exams, sport, music, school entrance exams, get into the "right" university, the "good" etc. Much of this pressure is unspoken some spoken. Middle aged Ive been working with children for years we are seeing more children (I'm talking 9-10 years olds and very occasionally even younger) adolescents who self harm, and taken overdoses many say "it was a cry for help" they talk about enormous pressure to do well in SATS/school exams/GCSEs/A levels and their anxiety about failing. Much of this pressure comes from their schools but they either feels that parents are also applying pressure or that parents are not supporting them sufficiently (not deliberately I must add in the vast majority of cases). As a professional I ask you to please think about you actions, when you et your DC see that you are "disappointed" in their grades, pushing them to do "better", "but with a bit more effort......

I got a bit worried over the weekend about my gdd in year 10 when casually she said I only need a 6 for 6th form entrance and I can do that without as much work and revision as I am doing. She is a high achiever expected to get 8s and 9s. Now I cannot decide whether she is feeling a lot of pressure to achieve the higher grades and may be struggling or whether she was being lazy as she did hardly any revision for her mocks this weekend. It really is a problem as I don't want to pressure her.

I ts hard...
The only way I have found yet is to talk about the future what they want to do and that if you want to do xxxx, then you need xxxx.

I'm finding the balance between being the best and pilling up a lot of pressure onto them and asking them to do their best (which could be a C btw) hard to find. It can so easily swing from doing your best to going perfect/the best.....

Tbh I don't think that the pressure to go to xx university etc... simto blame for MH problem in teenagers, unless it is really really bad.

If one wants to get to a top/better university, get a early good job, yu need the drive to do it. Constantly being told that doing average, no pressure at all, that's OK if you have a C even though yu could have had a A with a bit of revision doesn't help the child TBH. It certainly isn't teaching something that is essential. Which is that hard work pays. And you can dream big IF you want to. You don't have to dream small, which seems to be the default option (at least where we are).

It's interesting for example that there is far fewer MH issues in teenagers in France, in a cihtry where the education system is very elitist.
The reason is fewer hours in class and much much less exams.
Maybe there is something to learn from them there......

tbh, I think your comment in OP isn't actually very nice.

I had a friend who's father's comment on anything she did was - could have done better, her self esteem was rock bottom.

ds is 14, he does the minimum required to get by. Thankfully he is at a grammar school, so their minimal is quite high.
He is bright and is used to cruising through on bare minmum. In year 8 he got [put down a maths set due to poor test results, and started to say he didn't understand the teacher. This was his best subject.
AFTER that, when we told him he HAD to revise for end of year 8 exams, he kicked and huffed and swore, and knuckled down and worked. I think he gave himsef a shock.

We are in the middle of year 9 exams, and he did actually do some revision. Well, and hour or so (sigh).

My response to him is to ask how others did, was the teacher pleased, is he happy with result. He is more bothered underneath than he lets on, couldn't care less about GCSE (don't be stupid Mum, I'll revise for THOSE......) but he does care about not being bottom of the class, which gives him some motivation.

It's hard to be sanguine if it's a comprehensive school which runs mixed ability classes and you have a kid who has no mates doing anything different.

Really Blue what makes you think there are fewer MH issues in France? At the very least I would have though that different countries cultures and (self) reporting rates would make it hard to judge.

"It's interesting for example that there is far fewer MH issues in teenagers in France, in a cihtry where the education system is very elitist.
The reason is fewer hours in class and much much less exams."

The system is much more elitist, certainly. But I question the rest of this post. Far more exams. Much longer hours. And equivalent mental health issues. In my experience.

Im not against encouraging children to do their best and achieve what they're capable of, but there is a big difference between encouragement and support and pressurising and being disappointed in our children.
Blue I regularly see children who feel that there parents are or will be disappointed in them if they don't get to X or Y university I hear "my dad/mum/parents will be very upset/angry/disappointed if I don't get a place at X university" this a considerable burden for an adolescent especially when schools are also applying similiar pressure and usually comes at a time when they're trying to work out so many other things. I haven't said that this is the sole cause of their MH problems but its definitely a contributing factor for many and sadly often 1 of many other areas they feel the disappointment of their parents.

I thought the French school day was 8 - 5?

DH passed all of his o levels with good grades. His parents were very disappointed that he didn't do as well as his older sibling. They said he let them down. That stressed him out and he had a lot of unnecessary anxiety for a year or so in his first job, never thought he was doing it right. It took him a while to get past that.
He now has a fab job earning twice what his sibling does.
I passed 3 at C and my parents were happy. DS did similar to me has a good job with prospects and is saving up for a house. We always encouraged him and are proud of what he's done.
DD is straight A in most subjects, always does more than she needs to.

I disagree that high expectations creates mental ill health. Research also suggests parental pressure to achieve is not the problem.Good parents support children to develop resilience by allowing them to experience and learn to deal with failure at an early age. We need to teach children they are masters of their own destiny and give them the tools to succeed.
Far more mental ill health is linked to
drugs - including alcohol,

sex at too young an age and taken too casually,
inactivity, poor achievement and boredom.
Parental ill health
Divorce and separation of parents
Abuse
Loneliness and social isolation
Poverty and social disadvantage
Their own ill health.

A bit of managed stress is actually good for you. Achievement protects against mental ill health. High achievers tend to have less long term mental health problems.

DS has his history exam (Nat 5) in just over an hour and a half. He isn't even dressed, let alone last minute revising. There is laid back and there is stupidity. He is going to pay a heavy price for his can't be arsed attitude when the results come in...

I'm always nagging about working harder. Or at least, working smarter - i.e. knowing what you need to know and do, and how to go about getting hold of that knowledge! So, be organised, strategic and practical - a tall order for a teenage boy, but he's learning...

We've just embarked on GCSEs, so I'm probably not at my sanguine best right now. But it DOES drive me wild to see my son slow his work rate to a dawdle - it took from 9.30 to 12.15 today to achieve ONE practice question, which should take an hour. He'll do enough to get to the next stage, (minimum 6 Bs) and I hope get some decent grades (by which I mean As) in the subjects he wants to pursue at A level.

On the positive side, he isn't stressed and unhappy, for which I'm very grateful (and given the way I've bellowed at him at times, is much more than I deserve). He's intelligent and not without talent, and he's gradually waking up to where his intelligence and talents can take him. And compared to where he was a year ago, or even six months ago, he's making good progress! I keep reminding myself and him (when I'm not in a rage, that is) that these are the first significant exams he'll sit, not the last, and it's being able to sustain a career throughout a lifetime, not getting straight As at GCSE, that brings success! Oh, it's hard work, innit? Honestly, babies and toddlers, total doddle compared with this bit!

I do for the subjects I know he can gets straight As in. I lay off him for sciences, but all the humanities I just shrug and say - 'Put a bit of effort in next time. You can easily get an A in that. ' And he knows it. But I'd never dream of suggestng he should slave away at physics, because it's not his strength and I believe in allowing people to have strengths and weaknesses.

Surely though, parental pressure to achieve is only useful if it's linked to a realistic knowledge of the child's potential? Many MH difficulties are linked to narrow and rigid expectations rather than just 'high' ones. At uni I saw an awful lot of students who failed the first or second year of medicine or dentistry, having been conditioned into thinking of 'getting into med school' as a major achievement, and then suffering breakdowns when it turned out to be wrong for them.

Personally, I did rather well at O-level where I didn't need to do anything other than hand in my homework and do what I was told. I struggled with organising myself at A-level (and got called lazy by my parents) but pulled it together in the second year. My degree was a mess in my final year, however, because I didn't have enough experience of motivating and organising myself for independent study. It was a miserable time when I was constantly calling myself lazy and incompetent and a fraud but was probably suffering from depression. It didn't do me any good berating myself, and being motivated by fear of failure brings its own problems further down the line.

My ds isn't stressed and unhappy! I do shove him a bit-and school do s too. But he doesn't have much of an academic peer group at school, so it's easy for him to be satisfied by lsd than his best, by comparison. Thr were lots of peopl cleverer than dd in her form, so no need to shove her...........

My DSS2 once brought home a termly report without "les félicitations" (congratulations), which is awarded to top performing students who are good all rounders in French secondary schools - he got "les compliments" (compliments) and a suggestion that he had slacked off a bit and should pull his socks up. In jest and with a broad smile, I said that we would be reducing his food (he loves food) until his marks went back up. He believed me . He was a lot more upset than he was admitting to have dropped out of the top group of high performers and it hasn't happened again.