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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Bring back corporal punishment

98 replies

noblegiraffe · 31/03/2017 14:47

If we're heading back to the age of grammar schools, then let's also bring back corporal punishment. I understand that the suggestion is supported by 42% of people who voted a certain way.

Any supporters on here?

OP posts:
lavenderandrose · 31/03/2017 17:17

So, it's just another pop at leave voters, then :)

MsAwesomeDragon · 31/03/2017 17:22

The kids in my school who behave badly enough to be punished by caning, etc are the ones we are already concerned about. Using corporal punishment on those kids would further alienate them from education and for some of them it would be taking away the only "safe" space they have. For some children school is the only place they are sure they will be treated with kindness (most of these so not meet the threshold for SS involvement).

I was hit with a ruler as a reception child (so i was 4!) Because I'd forgotten my pencil and was too scared to tell my teacher, no wonder I was scared -she hit people!

My dad as a young teacher was expected to use corporal punishment. He caned a boy once and refused to do it ever again, he's still horrified that that was an expected pay of his job. He achieved the same standards of behaviour in his classes using detentions as other teachers maintained by caning, it can definitely be done.

I do think the key in improving behaviour is consistence. So if school tell parents about bad behaviour then the parents should also be disappointed in that behaviour rather than laughing indulgently (as one parent did to me on Wednesday when i told her about her 14yo son being very rude to me) or making excuses. But schools also need to be consistent within themselves. One school i worked in, i had a table thrown at me but nothing was done about that and i had to teach that child the following day as if nothing had happened, yet when the same child swore at his head of year he was excluded for a week. That sort of inconsistency is very confusing for children/teenagers and sends the message that you can be as bad as you like in some classes because nothing will be done.

noblegiraffe · 31/03/2017 17:23

lavender if this thread was a pop at leave voters a) my OP and thread title would have actually mentioned them and b) I'd have posted in a different section to attract certain posters.

As it is, my thread title was about corporal punishment, I chose the secondary education section and I only mentioned the poll as that is why the topic came to mind. I was rather surprised to see a sizeable proportion of the population supporting the return of corporal punishment so I thought maybe we could discuss it. That ok with you?

OP posts:
lavenderandrose · 31/03/2017 17:32

Giraffe, you can post where you want. I just genuinely don't really understand what the purpose of this thread is (and I don't mean that in a snide, shrill sort of way!) Just general bewilderment :)

If it's to discuss what people think of the possibility of corporal punishment coming back that's fine. I suppose I just still don't see where the 42% fit into it?

noblegiraffe · 31/03/2017 17:33

I think with certain kids in certain situations only smacking them works.

What kind of situations did you have in mind? And what type of kids?

OP posts:
lottachocca · 31/03/2017 17:34

How many remain voters wished to see the return of corporal punishment?

noblegiraffe · 31/03/2017 17:34

I just genuinely don't really understand what the purpose of this thread is

To have a discussion about corporal punishment? Confused

OP posts:
lavenderandrose · 31/03/2017 17:36

What I'm asking giraffe is what you meant by

I understand that the suggestion is supported by 42% of people who voted a certain way

I mean, I think it's largely a pointless discussion - Leave or Remain, it won't come back. But I don't know what the meaning of the statement above is.

noblegiraffe · 31/03/2017 17:38

14% of remainers were in favour of corporal punishment.

In a way it was kind of heartening to see that a return of the death penalty was more popular (53% leave, 20% remain) than the return of corporal punishment. Beating kids less popular than killing criminals.

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 31/03/2017 17:41

But I don't know what the meaning of the statement above is.

It means that there might be a debate to be had because clearly not everyone holds the same position on this topic. Which makes it more interesting than posting a thread titled 'let's stop educating girls' or something where I assume that everyone (on MN at least) is on the same page.

OP posts:
BeyondThePage · 31/03/2017 17:42

Hitting kids is wrong. Whatever the circumstances.

Hitting adults is wrong. Whatever the circumstances.

Dressing it up in fancy words doesn't make it any less wrong.

BertrandRussell · 31/03/2017 17:44

"I think with certain kids in certain situations only smacking them works

Can you give some examples?

I'm pretty sure I know what they will be, by the way.....Grin

bigmouthstrikesagain · 31/03/2017 17:50

m.youtube.com/watch?v=rDdbGQp7dwg

BasiliskStare · 31/03/2017 18:09

I am not entirely sure I understand fully your OP but for the avoidance of doubt I oppose corporal punishment. Not sure what it has to do with grammar schools. Noble , I agree . I am surprised that so many would support its return. I don't get out much Grin but I have never heard anyone advocating its return as long as I can remember. Am I right in that the quotation from David Hart was from 1982 ? Is this something which has been brought up recently? Not sure I can find the 42% thing. Probably my inadequacy....

flyingwithwings · 31/03/2017 18:15

These are accounts from Newspapers 1976 Daily Mail, London, 13 November 1976
The classroom terror
Head cleared as caned girl sobs in court

By James Golden

THE reign of Lynne Simmonds as a classroom terror ended when she was caned by the headmistress, a court heard yesterday.
Lynne Simmonds
LYNNE SIMMONDS

Miss Janet Dines
MISS JANET DINES

Lynne, who had a history of bad behaviour, was sent to Miss Janet Dines for eating crisps during a maths lesson.

But the three whacks given to 14-year-old Lynne on her bottom landed Miss Dines, head of Northwich Girls' Grammar School, Cheshire, in court.

Lynne's parents brought a private assault and beating charge. They claimed that Lynne was punished unreasonably.

But after Lynne broke down weeping as she told of her classroom antics, the case was withdrawn and Northwich magistrates dismissed the charge against the middle-aged headmistress.

Lynne, who passed her 11 plus to go to the school, admitted a catalogue of misbehaviour when cross-examined by Mr. John Hoggett, counsel for Miss Dines.

She said she told rude jokes in the scripture lessons while discussing moral and ethical questions.

She made remarks about teachers behind their backs and blew raspberries at them.

She told lies about having lost homework which she had not done and took a classmate's book without permission.

She stole a teacher's pen off her desk and offered it to a friend for a pound, and she disrupted the class.

Lynne was suspended for half a day by Miss Dines for the pen incident and her father gave her the strap.

She also admitted handing in a school project done by another girl, claiming it was hers.

But the girl in hospital and temporarily blind returned and Lynne was found out.

Then she was caught eating in a lesson and was sent to Miss Dines. The headmistress entered the punishment in the official book and told her she would be writing to her parents.

Lynne said that after the caning her bottom was sore for several weeks and she had been unable to sleep properly.

Mr Peter Hughes, prosecuting, said that a memo from Cheshire Education Committee laid down "If corporal punishment is used, it should only be a last resort and must only be used where it fits the offence."

He claimed Miss Dines acted unreasonably in view of the red weals the caning left.

When Lynne broke down there was an adjournment and Mr Hughes asked for the case to be withdrawn.

Mr Hoggett said: "This case has been hanging over my client, a responsible headmistress of this town, for a long time.

"There has been adverse publicity. It has been a time of great tension and distress. She is entitled to regard this as a complete vindication."

A spokesman for the Parent Governors said they would be discussing the case.

As he left with his still weeping daughter, who now goes to another school, Harry Simmonds, a dairy supervisor, of Sidney Street, Greenbank, Northwich, said: "No more comments. She has had enough."

Corpun file 18610
masthead
Daily Express, London, 13 November 1976
Teacher rules OK!
Head is cleared after caning

By Neil Moran
(extract)

Schoolgirl LynneA CANING brought tears to the eyes of school girl Lynne Simmons.

And there was a fresh flood of them yesterday when she broke down in a court witness box.

But it was a time to smile for the head mistress who administered "three of the best".

Miss Janet Dines left the court "completely vindicated" after being accused of assaulting and beating 14-year-old Lynne.
Joke

A private summons brought against Miss Dines by Lynne's parents was dismissed.

In cross-examination Lynne admitted cheating and lying during her time at Northwich Girls' Grammar School, Cheshire.

She also admitted:--

Telling a teacher she was pregnant for a joke.
Telling blue jokes during scripture lessons.
Making up fanciful tales about her sexual prowess in order to disrupt the class.
Blowing raspberries behind teachers' backs.
Telling lies to cover up her failure to do homework.
Taking a teacher's pen and offering it for sale at £1.

Miss DinesAfter this incident, her parents were called to the school and she was punished at home by her father.

Later she was found eating crisps during a lesson.

She was sent to see the head teacher and told she was going to be caned.

Lynne was told to lift her skirt, bend over a bookcase, and she had three firm strokes on the backside.

She arrived home an hour late having to push her bicycle most of the three miles because she was in pain.

The prosecution had claimed that the caning which left wealmarks across her backside was a punishment that failed to fit the crime.

[...]

Corpun file 18608
Northwich Guardian, Cheshire, 18 November 1976
Head who caned girl pupil is cleared
'Her actions vindicated' -- Counsel
(extracts)

HEADMISTRESS Miss Janet Dines has been cleared of assaulting and beating a 14-year-old Northwich Girls' Grammar School pupil last summer.

A Northwich Magistrates' Court case came to a [sic] abrupt end on Friday after Lynne Marie Simmonds burst into tears while giving evidence. After a 10-minute adjournment to give her time to recover, prosecuting barrister Mr Peter Hughes said he would offer no further evidence against Miss Dines and asked for the case to be dismissed.

Miss Dines, of 3, Beggarman's Lane, Knutsford, pleaded "not guilty" to assaulting Lynne, daughter of Mr and Mrs Harry Simmonds of 8a, Sydney Street, Greenbank, after she was caught eating crisps during a Maths lesson.

Members of the staff afterwards crowded round Miss Dines in court to congratulate her, but neither she nor Lynne's parents would talk to the Press, and Lynne hid her face against her mother's shoulder as they left the court surrounded by national newspaper photographers.

Mr Hughes said Maths teacher Miss Hobbs had caught Lynne with the crisps and sent her to Miss Dines. She was told to go back after lessons, but it was 4.30pm before the head could see her. It was not usual to keep girls behind unless their parents knew in advance.

"Miss Dines told her she would have to cane her, told her to pull her dress up, bend over and lean against the bookcase, and gave her three strokes on her backside," said Mr Hughes.

Police had taken photographs next day, and he handed copies to the bench. Woman Police Sergeant Valerie Lowry was due to give evidence that she could still see the marks 10 days later.

A letter from Dr Kiaran O'Sullivan, of Barnton, said Lynne had three red weals across her buttocks, two of them stretching round the hip region 14 inches long, and two marks on her knuckles.

Lynne, now a pupil of Hartford County Secondary School, said she got the marks on her knuckles while holding her dress up, as Miss Dines had told her to. She had been wearing a blue summer uniform dress, navy knickers and tights.

She had her bicycle with her, but was too sore to ride all three miles and her parents were worrying about her when she got home. She and the office staff had tried in vain to get a message to them.

"It was a very hot day and Miss Dines said her dogs had been shut in the car for over an hour and were suffocating because of me," Lynne told the court. "After she had caned me she entered it in the punishment book, and it was about the end of the second page or the beginning of the third. She told me she had hardly had to cane anybody in all the 10 years she had been there as head."

Lynne said Miss Dines told her her parents would receive a letter in the post the next morning. "I did not want them to know, but she said it was the regulation."

She denied to Mr John Hoggett (for Miss Dines) that she was so angry because of this that she threatened to "get" her.

Mr Hoggett reminded Lynne her father had strapped her across the legs after Miss Dines told him about her taking a fountain pen on an earlier occasion from French mistress Mrs McMullen, but she still denied she wanted to get Miss Dines into trouble for reporting her to her parents again.

Mr Hughes said when the police interviewed Miss Dines the day afterwards, she produced an ordinary three foot cane, which she said was an "official" cane she had brought from her previous school. Asked if Lynne had been in trouble with her before, Miss Dines had said she had spoken to the parents and they had agreed if she had trouble with Lynne she should punish her.

"This arose when Lynne took a pen in class," said Mr Hughes. "One would think that was a more serious incident than eating in class, but on that occasion Miss Dines asked the parents if they would punish her or if she should do it. They said they would do it and her father strapped her."

Mr Hughes maintained views on punishment had changed considerably from Victorian times and since he and the magistrates were at school. The Cheshire Education Authority did not forbid the use of corporal punishment but deprecated its use on girls.

"In my submission Miss Dines went beyond the reasonable, and the punishment did not fit the crime," Mr Hughes claimed.

[...]

It was while her own counsel, Mr Hughes, was questioning Lynne about Press interviews that she burst into tears and the court was adjourned.

After the adjournment, Mr Hughes said he wanted to offer no further evidence and asked for the case against Miss Dines to be dismissed.

Addressing the magistrates, chaired by Mr Wilfred Price, Mr Hoggett said the case had been hanging over a respected headmistress for some time. It had been a time of tension and distress, and what had just happened was a complete vindication of her and she was entitled to ask for costs. However, Miss Dines recognised other people had also been distressed, in particular Lynne and her parents, so he was instructed not to ask for costs.

The magistrates agreed the case should be dismissed.

[...]

Corpun file 12237
Northwich Guardian, Cheshire, 18 November 1976
Editorial
Responsibility of headship

WHATEVER the distress caused to all parties by the hearing at Northwich Magistrates' Court on Friday, the publicity which has followed should at last clear the air of rumours and counter-rumours which have flooded Northwich since a girl was caned at Northwich Grammar School for Girls by the headmistress.

We have already quoted at length in this column on the controversy which always surrounds corporal punishment in this present age. There are those in favour of it and those against. Neither will ever be convinced by the other side and any discussion on the subject ends in violent argument that solves nothing.

Unfortunately, these cases have a habit of ending in a court of law, and many people, as a result, are subject to probing, publicity and public questioning that goes much farther than the simple use of a cane by a teacher on a naughty pupil.

There are organisations, too, ready to leap on this bandwagon to further their own aims.

But one thing is sure. We have not yet reached the stage in the practical day to day running of our schools where the responsibilities of a head teacher have been taken over by a committee or a "people's court" of any sort. A headmaster or headmistress is chosen by the County Council to run a school, with a broad set of rules for guidance but a free hand as to their interpretation. That is as it must be.

If head teachers are so worried that their actions may lead to court appearances and public argument then they just cannot do their work properly. And when that situation arises it is bad for the whole community.

Education is very much in the public eye at the moment. Even the Prime Minister has given his thoughts on the subject. By all means let us have the closest possible interest in education by all sections of the community -- but let that interest deal with the broad principles and not the detail, which is delegated to a person who is answerable to the proper authority for it.

about a canning that went to far and ended up in court

BeyondThePage · 31/03/2017 18:19

If it did come back (and it won't) would there be a discipline officer responsible for administering punishment school-wide - (would we want to employ someone in this role who actually applied to be a hitter of children) , or would all teachers be required - under contract - to hit unruly children?

lottachocca · 31/03/2017 18:34

My brother got the strap for forgetting his homework, think it was called something stupid like 'six of the best" - my father was outraged and immediately went to the school to have "words with the teacher. Dad pinned the teacher up against the wall. Teacher was a very short man, my Dad was very tall and muscular....dad asked him how it felt, did he still feel the big man? He told the teacher if anyone dared to hit my brother again for forgotten homework they'd have him to face.
Teacher didn't press charges, my brother never received physical punishment from the school again for forgotten homework or anything else!

missyB1 · 31/03/2017 18:35

thankfully it will never come back, i have many bad memories of it from my schooldays (70s and 80s). I was caned as a 4 year old for being too noisy in the dinner hall. I was frequently smacked by teachers at primary school. I ran away from school one lunchtime as i was so miserable there, the HT tracked me down near my house and belted me several times. I narrowly avoided the cane at high school but many children I know were caned there.
Some teachers probably only went into the job as they were sadists.

noblegiraffe · 31/03/2017 18:40

Crikey, no wonder so many posters seem to have bad memories of school.

No point in going into teaching now if you're a sadist.

OP posts:
BasiliskStare · 31/03/2017 19:32

Noble - not sure if this posted , so -

I am not entirely sure I understand fully your OP but for the avoidance of doubt I oppose corporal punishment. Not sure what it has to do with grammar schools. Noble , I agree . I am surprised that so many would support its return. I don't get out much Grin but I have never heard anyone advocating its return as long as I can remember. Am I right in that the quotation from David Hart was from 1982 ? Is this something which has been brought up recently? Not sure I can find the 42% thing. Probably my inadequacy....

lottachocca · 31/03/2017 19:41

I don't think I've ever had a conversation in real life with anyone about bring back capital or corporal punishment - yet it seems quite a few people support their return. Not many people admit to smacking their kids either.

noblegiraffe · 31/03/2017 19:46

The 42% thing was from this Yougov poll of what people want to happen after Brexit.

Bring back corporal punishment
OP posts:
lottachocca · 31/03/2017 19:50

Leave voters are frigging scary...I struggle to believe they exist! nearly 10% want pre-decimal really?

Nicotina · 31/03/2017 19:52

We had corporal punishment at my school (I am that old). Never experienced it myself (my Mum did, so she tells me).
If anyone tried it on my child now I'd call the police. Although they would probably call them first after I had gone into school and punched them.
In short, hardly conducive to a positive learning environment.

Greatwhiteworld · 31/03/2017 19:58

DS joined the army at 18, he was beaten as a punishment for not cleaning his shoes. I was horrified but he said that it was normal as that he learned a valuable lesson.