Would you/have you started going to church to get child into a good church school?!

[Bomper]

My ds should pass his 11+, but I am not 100% confident he will. The comprehensive schools in my area are pretty awful, except one, which is a C of E school. Lots of parents have now started to go to church in order to be able to apply, and I am being urged to do the same. Most of me thinks - 'this is my childs future, I will do whatever it takes', but a small part feels guilty. WWYD?

I'm with you FiS. I went to Catholic school too and everyone I know who has has suffered intense guilt all their lives. I also found it unnecessarily strict and suffocating at times. I'm happy for dd to take her chances in a good state school where she encounters people with faith or not and people from a massive range of ethnic backgrounds. If I was avoiding 'wrapping in cotton wool' that seems to be a more sensible option.

"There are faith schools UD because some people want their children to learn religious education and because they have religious faith. Not everyone does so the schools are set up for people who want religion as part of their child's education."

Except that also all schools are required to teach RE and have daily collective acts of worship of a broadly Christian character, so those who don't want religion as part of their child's state education don't get the choice.

So

• if you want your child to have more religion as part of his/her education then that should be publicly funded within the state system
• if I want my child to have no religion as part of his education then that's tough, I'll need to go private. Oh, but I still need to pay my taxes for educating other people's children with more religion on top of that.

This is fair how, exactly?

Admittedly I could opt DS out of the religious education aspects, but that's not really comparable.

UD, historically faith school exist because at some point in the past the religious organisation in question set up the school and funded it. Most have since been absorbed into the state system in terms of running costs, curriculum etc, but the original capital expenditure came from the church (or other organisation). In many cases the church still has some ownership of the land and/or the buildings, sometimes with quite restrictive legal covenants regarding its use.

In many countries there definitely are faith hospitals, which were set up by the church and may still be partly staffed by members of a particular religious organisation even though they function as part of that country's state healthcare system.

I think the thing that has changed (probably far more so in the UK than in many other countries) is people's willingness to go along with the role of the church in public life. But it's certainly not a straightforward question of turning all faith schools over to secular control (even if a govt was ever elected with the will to do that) as I suspect in most cases the organisations that own the land and/or the buildings would opt to close the school entirely rather than change its character.

DS1 will be going to a faith school in September, it is by far the best school in the borough and lots of parents applied for places there.
One of the school gate mums said to me oh how did your son get in and mine did not, I pointed out that I have been attending our local church since we moved here 10 years ago, DS1 is baptised and waiting to be confirmed DH helps out with the scouts and DS1 got a glowing letter of recommendation from our priest.
She still seemed to think it unfair even though she could not name our priest.

I know of plenty of faith hospitals (not in the UK) and they happen to be the better run establishments as well.

Although the school bus is going to cost us £300 a year, and we have to contribute to the school every month.

I was talking about the UK. My point was that, in a STATE-funded system, you don't refuse someone a hospital bed simply because they don't happen to believe in one superstition/fairytale above another. You don't refuse someone a seat on a bus, or the collection of their bin, or all the other stuff our taxes pay for.

Indpendent sector is a different case entirely. If you want your children educated in a faith, pay for it and good luck to you, and that will be nothing to do with me.

So no, to answer the OP's question, I'd like to think I wouldn't. But I can see how people are driven to desperate measures by our imperfect system. If all state schools were available for ALL pupils in their catchment, they wouldn't need to pretend to have an imaginary friend in the sky.

People have to pay taxes for things they don't use all the time. Some people who don't have children might resent for having to pay taxes for schools at all.

Imaginary, as I said, I don't like the teaching of superstitionm but can live with it since it's it's not done with much fervour.
But you've hit upon the big difference between me and those who can't deal with reality.
I can cope with conflicting ideas, and want my kids to do so too.
If some of the teachers happen to believe different things to me, then as long as they are articulate in their folly and reasoned in their incorrectness I have no problem.
My problem with Christians (as opposed to Christianity) is that they are intellectually lazy, giving up on reason verfy quickly, and just resorting to "well I believe X", or citing a gravely mistranslated Bible as literal truth.
They get "offended", which is a sure sign of a weak mind. 100% reliable test.

You can't offend me by cliaming that Isaac Asimov didn't exist, or pointing out the odd sex life of Mary Shelley. If you say that physics is plain wrong, I might patronise you, but I would never lobby for laws that would get you locked up.
I certainly wouldn't try to kill you for holding the opinion that evolution is impossible because it's so improbable, but I would try real hard to get you to play poker for money with me

The idea that my kids should only be exposed to views of the world of which I approve is anathema to me. Education should be challenging, not comforting. I pay a lot of money to ensure my kids don't think like me. I want them to think better.

DC, what the heck are you going to do if your kids like the school and the education so much that they take the opposite attitude to yours and think that people with no faith are the 'mentally ill'? I'm so puzzled as to why you sent your kids there. It can't just be so that they can learn that people have 'deluded' ideas?!

UD, so why do you think church schools are so sought after? As many posters have said it isn't because they are the closest school, people are prepared to travel some distance at some expense to go to them. So what is it that they offer that state schools don't, that people want so much? It's understandable if they have faith, but if they don't, then why? And if they are just turned into regular state schools will they still be sought after?

UD, do you also think that private schools should become part of the public domain? Isn't that also just a choice made by parents who have either the money or have made sacrifices elsewhere to be able to afford it? Why is that different to those with religious faith? They've generally put their time in going to church and as people here have said they also contribute time and money to the school. It's a commitment.

I live in inner city London where the schools are mostly quite difficult. This is due to all kinds of reasons such as huge immigrant turnover, lots of social housing, etc. Those who can afford to choose to send their kids to private schools or some 'fake it' and get their kids into church schools. The handful of good state schools is tiny. For this reason I have to axe to grind with anybody who fights to get a place in a church school. I just find it hard to understand why someone so adamantly against religion as DC here would send their child to a church school. Most people I know are neither here nor there on the subject.

We moved across my borough to get dd into her current state school. My two closest schools previously were in dire straits. One is in the centre of a housing estate which holds some of the largest NF rallies and the school is 80% white which is incredible considering that the local families are 80% other ethnic origin. They simply don't dare to send their kids there. It's such a problem. My other closest school is on the verge of closure after 2 dreadful ofsted reports. I couldn't send dd to either. The former may have been too much for her because I'm Jewish, the latter seemed like it wasn't going to be there much longer. I could have seen sending her to either of those other schools as a 'challenge' as not 'wrapping her in cotton wool,' but she's 4, school in itself is enough of a challenge. What I'm ramblingly trying to get at is that if the ethos of a school is against your principles in a very deep way, i.e. in the case of one of my schools, racist, then you can't send a child there and hope they are capable of realising other people's 'stupidity.'

I meant no axe to grind.

Spot on 'Unquietdad' ! Unfortunately, in our area the only co-ed secondary in the main town is a CofE school which has led to no-end of parents 'getting religion' in order to have a hope of their children going to the same school. This is exacerbated by the fact that the Girls school significantly outperforms the Boys school ( the Church school outperforms them both). The result is that mc parents of boys start going to church and then their girls go to the church school too - affecting the intake of all the comprehensives in the area. The system is a mess; it is neither comprehensive nor selective by ability. Plenty of selection goes on by the back door. I know it is a generalisation but only the mc parents have the time to give up their Sundays. People struggling with shift work can't.

You're not suggesting that only mc people go to church?! Maybe I'm totally missing something here, or maybe it's different in London, but IME it is generally working class and black families who are the staunch church goers.

As a practising Catholic, what really hacks me off is all these parents pretending to be believers to get their kids into the RC schools - at my local church (which has an excellent primary school attached) you see streams of them in their 4x4s, running into church for communion in order to be 'seen' and then herding little Tarquin and Jemima back out again asap.

It annoys the bejesus out of me that some of these people may get school places at the expense of us 'real' Catholics... mutter mutter

And please stop slagging Christians as braindead, rightwing nutjobs - the vast majority of us are nothing like that, you appear to be confusing ordinary people who happen to believe in God (and believe you me when you get into serious theology it's not the slightest bit mentally lazy, but I'm not about to start that argument at this time of night!) with the born-again fundamentalists (same as any other religion!) who spout that sort of creationist shite - fwiw, I went to a Catholic school, I'm not the slightest bit tormented by guilt, every nun I've met has been lovely, and we learnt evolution just like everybody else. So there.

I'm glad you posted LC because I have no experience of Catholic schools these days. I did attend a Catholic school, a very good one, and I think it did screw my head up a bit but that might have been partly to do with not continuing with my faith afterwards. I don't know any more.

But I'm glad you posted to defend church-goers because it's totally offensive to suggest they're either rich, stupid or deluded.

I've never considered a church school because I'm not, nor do I want to be, a church-goer. But it doesn't bother me in the least that people who do believe and who are committed ot their beliefs are allowed to reap the benefits of that by having schools which suit their beliefs. And it bugs me that anybody else thinks they have a right to part of that just because they want it, without having to make the same commitment.

it's the same as anything. You don't get the job you want without studying / working for it. And you can't despise other people for having something you want while at the same time slagging it off.

Lovecat, ditto to every word you've said!!!

Ooh ... a fan!

No, I'm not suggesting that only mc parents go to church but I am suggesting that many 'faith schools' and certainly the one in our area (rural, not London) have a disproportionate number of mc families. You have only got to look at the percentage of pupils on free school meals which is way lower in the faith school than it is in the other schools. Whilst the faith school route remains as an option, it makes it even more impossible to have a fair system for all.

So what would you suggest, im?

No I wouldn't - the nearest CofE school to me turns out some right thugs and they don't necessarily get into good unis either. Either pay to go privately or put up with it. Why should the church pay to educate y our child into a faith when you don't believe in it?

Before anyone says anything I rarely go to church myself but I do respect those who do go.

I think for a child to really learn from a teacher they need to respect the teacher. How can that happen if you are telling your son that they are deluded and superstitious?

paula, you put that question in one sentence. I've been trying to say that elsewhere in about 50 sentences. Why would anyone go to such effort to get their kids into a school which has beliefs they think are 'mentally ill'?! I can't get my head round it.