Would you/have you started going to church to get child into a good church school?!

[Bomper]

My ds should pass his 11+, but I am not 100% confident he will. The comprehensive schools in my area are pretty awful, except one, which is a C of E school. Lots of parents have now started to go to church in order to be able to apply, and I am being urged to do the same. Most of me thinks - 'this is my childs future, I will do whatever it takes', but a small part feels guilty. WWYD?

She also talks like she's got a punnet of plums in her mouth, and that's something else I don't want my kids to learn.

Goodness - we're going round in circles here aren't we?

I don't think there should be schools that are based on an ethos that a parent holds dear.

Whilst I am pretty certain the establishment of schools which can exclusively select the children of vegetarian parents, conservative parents, socialist parents, football loving parents, parents in favour of corporal punishment will never happen - I would not want those either.

If ever there were to be (state) school choice for parents based on ethos - that would be educational ethos and not the ridiculous system whereby a child gains entry to a school based on how many times their parent sat at the front of church and shook the vicars hand.

Just as it would be equally ludisrous to select children into a stage school on the basis of how many times their parents had been to the theatre the previous year.

Given the hoops that the religious authorities make parents jump through, does it not follow that some parents who are genuinely committed, but not pushy, lose out, whereas deceitful ones can get places ?

I realise Smiley that you think it's fine so long as you are in favour of everyone being able to choose a school on a ridiculous ethos but I don't think the government will be in favour of funding Vegetarian-only schools anytime soon.

I doubt that happens very much most Priest, pastors, or vicars usually see right through these people.

Yes DC - like my DD's friend whose parents are evangelical Christians but not admitted to the C of E school.

Your friends didn't go to that specific church though. My daughter goes to a methodist school but I am baptist. I would have understood if my dd was not given a place if there was a methodist child who needed it.

But my daughetr's friend's parents would have liked her educated at a faith school. Why can't they have that if the C of E child can?

Anyway, I don't think my daughter's friends mother is too bitter about it. She's confident that her family and church will be enough to provide the Christian environment they covet. I as just pointing out that it does happen that genuine people of faith can be pushed aside by the bums-on-seats brigade.

Whilst I take on board that there are plenty of areas where the 'faith' schools are not the 'best performing' schools the problem is that in many areas they are and as a result are oversubscribed. The situation here is that the CofE school in the nearby town is in the top 3 in the county in the league tables and signifacantly oversubscribed.It has a very low percentage of children on free school meals and is most definitely selecting by the back door. The 'local' school is bottom in the league tables. We can also apply to the other 2 schools (one boys, and one girls) schools in the town but are out of catchment. For the sake of the environment, I would like my dd to walk to school but unless there is a significant shift in the intake and hence performance of the local school, I will not send her there. At the moment, most of her friends ( we all go to our local primary)are eligable to go to the CofE school in the town and their parents may well take advantage of this. They are all 'committed parents' (don't want to use the middle -class label)and will be lost to the local school thereby skewing its intake.If they can't get into the CofE school they are likely to choose one of the other schools in town. Because the local school is never first choice with this type of parent they ship in pupils from out of catchment. They also (because they have the space) have to take on pupils who have been excluded elsewhere. What we have is a vicious circle and it would take a brave set of parents to break it.

You think the state should not provide or promote religion in schools, others think they should.

The state provides both types of schools at no additional cost. You don't have to have religion foisted on your children, others can have it if they want it.

What's the problem? You say state shouldn't provide faith education but don't say why beyond you believing it.

Apart from the unfair selection issue, which I concede is unfair but no more unfair than any other selection policy for over subscribed schools.

So beyond selection, which we've done to death and becapart from 'becausue they shouldn't' why do you object to faith schools?

If people were demanding special treatment at additional cost I could understand the objection. But faith schools provide a service at same cost and as effeciently that some want and some don't.

Surely everyone should be happy?

I for one have never said the state should not provide religious education.
Like many I think it is wrong for resources provided by our taxes to be denied to children on the basis of their parents religion.
Schools are not like supermarkets.
My local supermarket has a Kosher section. I don't use it. Do I think it's bad ?
No.
I am not forced to buy awful food because of others religion. 95% of the supermarket is non-kosher.
But there is a profound shortage of good schools.

I am not forced to drive across town to find non-kosher food, and I suffer not one bit. If I choose, As it happens I really like salt beef, and no Jew has used state money to stop me.
Schools aren't like that.
If the nearest school discriminates on religion, a resource I have paid for, is denied to my children.
Vast numbers of extra journeys need to be made ferrying kids across town, and many get dumped into crap ones far away because of their parents failure to be exactly the right sort of Christian.
Also, I question that there is any sort of "Christian Child". Our politics are a sort of libertarian, do our kids even know the word ?
No.
A 7yo is extremely unlikely to haveany understanding of Christianity or Islam or Jusaism. Indeed the Catholic St. Bernadette was deemed to have had direct contact with the mother of God merely by demonstrating a basic knowledge of Christian doctrine a bit early.
It is thus wholly false to say that there are alternatives. We do not have many good local schools to choose from.
Go look up "separate but equal", see if you really support the ideas you spout.

SmileysPeople - You are deliberatley missing people's points of view. Why don't you answer some of the questions posed to you?

Is it right that children should be selected into a school based on how their parents' perform?

Your child (if you go to church) has the choice of a faith school or a non-faith school. The child of a non-religious parent does not. In yet both sets of parent pay the same in taxes. One has a choice, the other does not.

And before you dish out your stock answer about all oversubscribed schools selecting - we're not talking about other state schools, we're discussing faith schools. Two wrongs don't make a right.

"You say state shouldn't provide faith education but don't say why beyond you believing it."

Many reasons. It's divisive. The school's are not representative of British population. They aren't spread evenly, so even if one is in favour of a religious education, you might not have access to a faith school. Hence, they really benefit a minority of the population who would be better served in the private sector.

Regardless of the unfairness within society they're unfair to the children who have no choice in the matter of indoctrination. Religion is a big deal. It moulds people into a set box of beliefs, and I don't think that is the best way to be shaping young minds in the 21st century.

Oops - I didn't mean for that apostrophe to be on the end of parents.

HaHa I think its up to parents not the Government to decide how our childrens' minds are shaped.

DominiConnor assemblies and RE are not meant to promote RE at all they are supposed to reflect the fact that Baroness balck thought about 20 years ago that this country was a Christian country.

Twinset your posts indicate that you come from some parallel universe.
The requirement for communal worship dates from the 1940s around WWII. Did the Germans winthat in your universe ?

DC - There, and I thought it was because we had an Established Church with the Head of State as the Head of the Church!
(By the way I understand that the CoE is not happy with the situation re: church schools as they see their job as helping those most in need in society)

I probably would. It doesn't seem anymore hypocritical than organised religion itself so yeh, why not?

the act you refer to is from the 1940s, 1944 actually.

When education was looked at again in 1988 (Education reform act) religious education and collective worship were hotly debated and it was Baroness Black who lead those wanting RE to have a central place in curriculum and referring back to the 1944 act said that there should be a collective worsip whihc should reflect the fact that Britain is broadly Christian in nature.

Therefore the reason that RE and collective worship in schools is because of the 1988 act.

I really do not know why you are being rude to me.

I haven't read the whole thread but can guess it probably kicked off but in answer to the OP I am a dreadful hypocrite and probably do anything to get my 'little darling'into the school of my choice.

It hasn't kicked of but is a healthy debate apart from the fact that DC is insistent that I am thick and know nothing about my job! good job I have thick skin and am trained in the art of dealing with childish insults.

PPB "HaHa I think its up to parents not the Government to decide how our childrens' minds are shaped."

If - and I fell like I am repeating myself over and over here - you want your child to have some exclusive kind of education, then why shouldn't you pay for that??????

PPB "HaHa I think its up to parents not the Government to decide how our childrens' minds are shaped."

I just realised that you are in agreement with me. Indeed, why should government funded schools be (religiously) shaping impressionable minds.