Would you/have you started going to church to get child into a good church school?!

[Bomper]

My ds should pass his 11+, but I am not 100% confident he will. The comprehensive schools in my area are pretty awful, except one, which is a C of E school. Lots of parents have now started to go to church in order to be able to apply, and I am being urged to do the same. Most of me thinks - 'this is my childs future, I will do whatever it takes', but a small part feels guilty. WWYD?

DC - thought you were talking about secondary.

Yes, I have been pleased with BHCPS.

still dunno blu - an sicking wih god favours us cos either you dont believe or you have proddies - and thats simply made up shit

UQD, to answer your 'football supporter type schools scenario':

If within an area there were a signifacnt and critical number of parents who felt that it was fundementally important to them, that central to their children's education was their belisf in vegetarianism/naturism/support of Sheffield Wedensday, and they could coherently argue the integrity of this importance and demonstrate that sufficent numbers would take up places at such a school to make it ecomonmcially viable within that area, then sure, why not???

Obviously it's not going to happen as there is no cohesive demand for such schools, except from people who have a faith.

And to follow on your premise, if once such a vegetarian school was established, the school were told they could not priortise places for vegetarian's, and therefore were froced to admit 80% non vegetarians, then the school would cease to be have the very vegetarian ethos it was established for in the first place.

(please all note I know this is bizarre, just answering UQD's football schools point, he felt was unanawered.)

Would appear I'm out of datw with the Ofsted report. But the defects in the headmaster were downright terminal.
I can't think any way of spinning "maths is no use past 12 or 13" that makes him look anything other than a dangerous idiot.
Ironically today was listening to a Billy Connolly recording, where he says algebra was no use to him. Difference is of course that Mr. Connolly was joking, and St. John's heasd is a joker. Never met anything like it in my life.

Bear in mind, those of you who are at present struggling with your consciences or frantically doing sums to see if you can move to a different catchment area, that if you can make sure your kids learn to read, and to be interested in the world around them, and if you can supply support and encouragement for them to develop their own abilities, talents and interests, then they'll be all right no matter what school you send them to (serious problems of bullying and violence aside). And home schooling is always a possiblity - it doesn't necessraily mean beardy vegans with no TV weaving clothes out of each other's nose hair: a lot of 'home'schoolers are peole who club together to educate a batch of kids outside the usual education system. It's not illegal and it doesn't mean your DCs are doomed to a life of "wierdness".

Smiley Quote "If within an area there were a signifacnt and critical number of parents who felt that it was fundementally important to them, that central to their children's education was their belisf in vegetarianism/naturism/support of Sheffield Wedensday, and they could coherently argue the integrity of this importance and demonstrate that sufficent numbers would take up places at such a school to make it ecomonmcially viable within that area, then sure, why not???

And would you still be saying 'sure, why not' if that was the best school in the area and your child was excluded from applying to go there?

Quote: "Obviously it's not going to happen as there is no cohesive demand for such schools, except from people who have a faith."

I disagree. I believe the amount of parents who want their children educated 'wtih faith' is a lot lower than the amount of parents who apply on the basis of faith. Where an area has other schools which are good, I wonder if the faith schools are so over-subscribed? From what I have read anecdotally on this thread, it seems not.

My dd is at a chruch school which is a very good school and not because it excludes people - I know that everyone who applied got a place - perhaps because the other local primarty schools which are a mixture of C of E and non denominational are also all very good school.

As far as I know most of the kids in dd family come from genuinely cathlolic families or they are doing a jolly good job of impersonating catholics! In dd class there are a few kids from other faiths and a very smallnumber that are not church attenders.

I think we are a good school for the following reasons:
As someone said below all the kids come from very disciplined organised families as evidenced by the fact we are all at church every week at 9am, we all roll out for the endless jumble sales, prayer meetings, fundraisers and socials. I am not saying that only religious people are organised and disciplined but the two tend to go together.

I know dd teachers, headteacher and the familes of her frinds well, hvaing been attending church with them for years.Dd knows tht if she messes about I will find out and I will talk to the adults concerned. For example she was having problems with a girl in her class and I sorted it it out with the other girls mum after church.

Dd and her friends are motivated by their religion to behave, every night dd and I say our prayers and we say sorry for what we ahve done wrong and thank God for the many wonderful things in our life. Again I am not saying us catholics ahve exclusivity on morals and behaving well but certainly in this house faith and behaviour are linked.

Parental support is very very strong at dd school which is the key to success in schools, we want our children to be raised in a certain way, we have shared values and beleiefs with the school and therefore supprt the school in every way we can whether that be finanacially or in terms of helping out.

But success at church schools does not need to be at the expense of other schools, as I said earlier we have excellent church and non religious schools which means thatour church schools tend to be filled with genuinely religious parents as non religious parents are happy with the other option. The same is true at secondary level as we have an very good catholic secondary and an eevn better non denominational secondary and an imrpoving C of E secondary.

Perhaps the answer is less church schools so only the genuinely religious go which would force other schools to improve.

HaHaBizarre my dd church school is not oversubsribed, 32 applied 32 got in as there are other good schools to apply to.

the cathlolic secondary is over subscribed but so is the very good non church secondary and the improving C of E secondary,

Oh, and just one other thing about faith schools that no one seems to have mentioned so far... in how many cases is the discipline and subservience and staying quietly indoors rather than playing loud Devil music to do with being routinely sexually assaulted by ministers of religion?

I don;t know despite being convent educated the priests managed to avoid the temptation that clearly all prists have to bugger me senseless in the confessional.

Wha ta silly point.

What an offensive post, madamez. As if that kind of behaviour exists nowhere else in life.

There have been tons of posts since I was on this thread last night, it's taken ages to read. And nothing anybody has said has made my change my opinion that if you're a non-believer it makes no sense to fight for a religious school place then slag off the 'gift' you've been given.

Mademez- I would have given you more credit than to post something so ridiculous. I am disappointed.

Mademez where do you get your ideas from?

Kimi: there have been plenty of documented cases of predatory religious officials being shunted from school to school and their crimes covered up, which is why I made the comment.
I am not arguing that abuse of pupil only occurs in faith schools, just irritated at this ongoing delusion some people seem to have that a faith school is bound to be better than a non-faith school.
And I'm a parent who will be going out of my way to avoid sending DS to a faith school.

Coming in late on this but yes I would definitely go to church to get my child into a faith school - and I am an atheist.

I don't feel remotely hypocritical (just a bit previous - she's only 5 months old...).

My view is that I did not ask for a schooling system which selected on the basis of religion and I am aggrieved at a system which, in the case of a C of E school, prioritises "other faiths" over those of no faith. Having no faith doesn't mean I am ignorant or immoral. It means I have formed a view about the existence of God but has no bearing on the standard of education I want for my child.

If there was a school for committed atheists for parents who could prove they were committed atheists and which prioritised other committed naysayers over believers I would jump at it but I fear there are none.

In my borough, the only decent schools are faith schools (let's be honest, they are C of E schools - there are no others as far as I know). IMO they are not good schools BECAUSE they are Christian schools. They are good schools because they are selective.

Selection on the basis of religion tends to allow for selection of motivated parents and therefore results in better schools.

So, stuck in a system I don't agree with, I am happy to do what I have to do.

mainlymayday, they are selective on religious belief not on any other grounds. They are not better schools because they are 'selective'.

What I can't get my head around is that faith schools are the minority. As are church-goers. It's not like there's no other choice.

I didn't consider sending dd to a church school because I'm not a church-goer. That's not to say I don't have my own forms of faith. I'm Jewish and I went to Catholic school (my father converted to Catholicism after the 2nd world war during which he lost all his family) so I have a sense of the value of faith but I don't have the commitment to think I 'deserve' a place in a faith school. I would also not send dd to a Jewish school although there are some excellent ones and officially I could if I wanted to.

Surely the bottom line is that faith schools are for people of faith. Some of them are excellent, some of them are average. Like non-faith schools.

I do think that there are faith schools that are selactive on grounds other than faith but thatis beacause they are oversubscribed not becuase they are faith schools.

Hoorah for Blu's excellent posts on this thread. And Frogs'.

And how many DominiConnors can dance on the head of a pin??

Just popped back to answer as some people have addressed me specifically.

Blu's question was "What are the convincing reasons that Catholic schools do better than secular maintained schools?" There was more, but that was the gist.

I don't think there are any, specifically...? There are all sorts of reasons why "good" schools do well - parental involvement, motivated kids, good leadership. You find these in some faith schools and some ordinary state schools. The only convincing thing seems to be that good schools attract parents who want to do the best for their kids and will jump through hoops to do so. I've yet to see evidence that it's the "faith" dimension - as opposed to the fact that these other elemetns are in place - which makes the school a good one.

becky/smiley - apologies if the football analogy seems to trivialise the issue. That wasn't my intention. I just wanted to choose a criterion which seemed silly - something which seems, in fact, like a faith school's criteria do to an outsider. I don't feel I suffer from lack of empathy - I've been round here long enough now, and I don't think people can accuse me of that on other threads. I just wanted to demonstrate how bizarre and arbitrary a faith CAN seem to someone who just doesn't live their life like that.

custardo - I like the joke.

mayday, would you lie outright?

It doesn't acatually seem totally ,wildly unreasonable to me for schools to select a bit - on the grounds of academic aptitute, or sporting talent, or musical skill. There comes a point where it's a bit pointless trying to force someone to learn about a subject that is of no interest to them, when they'd be much better off devoting more of their time to developing their own skills, talents and areas of expertise. If your inclinations and abilities are all indicating that archaology is the ideal area for you to work in, why spend half your day being frogmarched round the hockey field? And if your aptitude is for ballet, do you really need to be repeatedly shouted at and reduced to tears of inadequacy by a maths teacher?
I appreciate that a certain amount of general education is necessary in order to give people a chance to find out in which area their interests lie, but I fail to see why paying lip service to any one brand of mythology over another gives any indication of what skills, talents, intelligence or moral values any individual might possess.

I understand that school is important but as a born again Christian I would have to say that church is were Christians go to worship and praise. It can be uncomfortable for non Christians and if the non Christian is attending to ensure school places this must be a living hell. Everyone in church should be there because they want to be. If you want to be a Christian then go for it and go regularly but as a child I has bullied because my parents were Christians. The bullies called me a bible basher etc etc it was very nasty and made me question my own faith for years. Still not recovered fully but am starting to. My 2 DS's go every Sunday with my parents I go every now and then but carry on with God at home. My DH wants nothing to do with it he believes in God but hates churches. I now Christian school are good but if the children are not really Christians will they get bullied like I did for going to a public school and being a born again Christian. Was worse when we my parents put use in Army school in Cyprus were they followed Gods path and I was known as the God girl.

Should just add that DD1 starts school in September and our catchment school is C of E. But I have chosen and been accepted for her to go to a non Christian school a mile down the road as I prefer the way they teach and interact with children and I don't want my DD's to suffer at school like I did always the odd one out treated differently because I was not the same as them (non-Christians).