£500 million for T-Levels, a technical alternative to A-levels

[noblegiraffe]

Apparently Brexit will leave a big hole in our construction/manufacturing industries so the government will be announcing new technical qualifications for colleges and sixth forms as part of the Budget on Wednesday.

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/new-t-levels-replace-thousands-post-16-vocational-qualifications

I'm not sure how 15 T-levels will effectively replace 13,000 vocational qualifications but I'm sure the government has thought this through properly and carefully before making this announcement.

True Bojo, I don't know the breakdown of qualifications in the 18-24 yr olds - some will indeed be degree holders.

I think there are two separate questions - do the T quals add anything useful - don't know the answer! And are we at full employment? - answer seems to be no, as I think 1 in 10 was historically regarded as a high rate of unemployment (ie in 2nd half twentieth century UK). Though I realise there have been some structural changes in the economy since then, 1 in 10 still seems likely to be a significant waste of talent.

I think you're right that recruitment difficulties/low pay go together -

The UK has more pensioners than school children
the number of pensioners is growing
the number of children is falling

And what's more, the government is actively discouraging people from having more than two children, by capping child benefit.

Perhaps the government, instead of listening to the willathepeople and the daily Heil, should listen to umm, experts and get a Plan?

cuitadella
From that Parliamentary report ....
121,000 16-17 year olds were unemployed, compared to 952,000 who were economically inactive.
The unemployment rate for 16-17 year olds was estimated at 24.8%, down from 26.5% in the previous year.
The unemployment rate for 16-17 year olds in 2016 is higher than it was in the early 2000s.
This is explained by increasing numbers staying in fulltime education so that fewer 16-17 year olds are economically active
(the unemployment rate is calculated as a proportion of the economically active population).

Or to put it another way, the percentage is bilge because if most kids are at college, some are at work and a few are out of work, the percentage is very very skewed.

bojorojo
The unemployment statistics count University students as "economically inactive"
So among the 18-21 its the proportion of those not at uni not in work
rather than the proportion of capable of working but doing something else useful.

Thanks Talkinpeace that's interesting - so yes the 24% is skewed, but if you look at the absolute figure of 370k unemployed 16-24 yr olds (and 121k 16-18 yr olds) there is still some unused potential in the workforce at the moment (though not as much as the 10% figure might imply).

Though of course there may be other difficulties to overcome - geographical mismatch being one. Not that easy for an 18 yr old to afford to live away from home in the South East in a low wage job these days. Would be interesting to know how much high SE housing costs are contributing indirectly to youth unemployment in the UK.

The UK Had, until the moron Gove decided everybody should do GCSEs some excellent and well respected vocational qualifications.

The C&G exams have stood the test of time
but the muppets who set policy all went to selective schools so do not understand them.

HNDs created a lot of good people
but are gone

the original BTECS were fine

apprenticeships went because employers were too busy avoiding tax to want to invest in their own employees any more

We have never had enough construction workers down the centuries - the Irish came to do that job. Then we go into recession periodically and no one in construction has enough work. Then we want to start projects again but wonder why we don't have enough construction workers? It is because it is a yo yo of a job. Other jobs have more stability and the work is inside.

Quite agree. My partner comes from a family of joiners. His Dad has had some very well-paid jobs at times but also lean times and some rampant exploitation by the unscrupulous. Not to mention that health and safety can take a low priority (a colleague's husband has recently died of an asbestos related illness) and the job is inherently risky even under good conditions.

Equally the better jobs in construction are not for those "good with their hands" but can't do academics. You can't be a plumber without decent Maths and English - modern boilers are complex things - it's not about being good with a wrench!

As for academics and vocational having the same status have a look at another Mumsnet threader asking how she can start prepping her five year old for the 11+. Separate but equal?

I suspect that part of the problem is that we are no longer a major manufacturing country. If we were, high quality technical qualifications would have more status.

I recall studying the history of education in the 19th Century. I was told that the people who made pots of money in manufacturing tended to want their sons to have a public school education, copying the aristocracy, hence schools like Radley started up. Then the sons didn't want to get their hands dirty in industry.

I suspect that part of the problem is that we are no longer a major manufacturing country.

Except that we are. We're the 9th largest exporter in the world. Maybe not as much as in the past where we were probably number 1, but still highly important. Major exports being cars, oil and pharmaceuticals.

Except that we are.

We are no longer 'the workshop of the world'. E.g. I went to a railway exhibition in India - all the 19th century locomotives were imported from the UK. Now we get Siemens or Hitachi to make locomotives for us. Cars are predominantly assembled here - we aren't making a significant number of parts for them.

What I was saying that there will be a pull towards qualifications if the demand is there. Just providing courses won't be sufficient if the work isn't there.

Exports are far more wide-ranging than manufactured goods! This country exports services and this is a huge sector. With a high wage economy, we are never going to compete with China regarding manufactured goods. Nor can we compete with India. Both these countries are high polluters too: we are not. It costs money to be clean. We export our brains and ingenuity. We do not export manufatured goods whre "brawn" is needed. The government seems to believe that new the qualifications will increase our exports, and decrease immigration, because our young peole will be brainier and apply themselves to study and work experience in the 15 identified strands . I just cannot see how new qualifications will change the position for the ones who do not want to study or work.

I think it would be interesting to see where the most unemployed young people are geographically and work out what they can do in their area. Most will not be able to move to a more expensive, high employment, area for obvious reasons. Therefore the question is, do they want to work? Do they want to study? I am very dubious about this. It is why there are so many people from abroad doing relatively low skilled jobs in hospitality and social care. We all know there are jobs, so why do the young unemployed not want to do them? It has become too easy for some (UKIP) to moan at others who do want the jobs, and not address why our young people do not want them.

More info here:

schoolsweek.co.uk/what-are-t-levels/?utm_content=buffer2118f&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

I think it would be interesting to see where the most unemployed young people are geographically and work out what they can do in their area. Most will not be able to move to a more expensive, high employment, area for obvious reasons. Therefore the question is, do they want to work? Do they want to study?
Hear Hear

Major exports being cars, oil and pharmaceuticals.

And what happens post Brexit after we lose the European Medicines Agency and the pharmaceutical companies transfer chunks of their operations into the EU? What happens to our car exports if we crash out of the EU with no trade deal? What about all the financial services that are currently being transferred into other EU countries?

It's hard to see how these technical qualifications are going to have any real effect on mitigating post-Brexit issues.

In this case, I don't think Brexit should be considered. There has been a need to sort out technical and vocational education for a good long time. The trouble is I can't see May, Hammond, BoJo, etc. being the ones to do so.

Do existing qualifications need to be put into some framework, for comparison purposes? I don't know. As Ta1kin says, some qualifications like C & G have stood the test of time, and an employer who requires someone with those skills will already know that.

I have been disappointed so far with Justine Greening - as a product of a Comprehensive and Sixth Form, (or was it FE college?), I would have hoped for more. Still, I suppose she is heavily outnumbered by the privately and grammar educated ones in Government.

So, from SchoolsWeek:

The 15 routes listed within the Skills Plan are as follows:

– Agriculture, Environmental and Animal Care
– Business and Administrative
– Catering and Hospitality
– Childcare and Education
– Construction
– Creative and Design
– Digital
– Engineering and Manufacturing
– Hair and Beauty
– Health and Science
– Legal, Finance and Accounting
– Protective Services*
– Sales, Marketing and Procurement*
– Social Care*
– Transport and Logistics*

• primarily delivered through apprenticeships.

Most seem self explanatory, I' not sure what all of them mean though.

So basically its all the courses that non A level colleges already do
with their funding being cut every year

and as each of those headings has up to 1000 courses within it, we are exactly where we started from.

Ta1lkin - that was my impression too - essentially a branding exercise.

It does annoy me - some vocational qualifications are very good, but getting Politicians to appreciate this seems to be beyond them.

I am sorry if I am repeating someone but the issue we have (and definitely the School my partner is head of sixth form at) is that we can't employ staff to teach these subjects.
My partner has a fully working professional kitchen at his school and no one will work there.....

My local college has a fully professional kitchen and have trained chefs for years - no problems recruiting. Plenty of work for the young people too. How hard have they tried? Former chefs are often interested.

So does the one down the road from me. Trained award winning chefs and has its own hotel. Teachers/ chefs just don't want to go where he is though.