Turning down grammar place

[amicrazy2017]

Hello

This is a first time post so please forgive any mistakes!

My daughter is currently privately educated at junior school, though she did attend a state infant school. We've got an offer to go to an independent school which is very well suited to her but yesterday we received an offer for a highly performing grammar school in our local area. I've been um-ing and ah-ing for over 12 hours, very little sleep!!

Is it worth accepting a grammar place and freeing up funds for university? We don't have an educational trust fund, just pay out of income. What would you do?

there's a lot of this going on right now in South Bucks where there are a lot of very good grammars and OK but lavishly kitted out private schools. Our head teacher always says to remember that grammars don't give you a private school education for free and that performance is all - it takes a particular "type" to thrive. if your child is that "type" and is competitive and also driven enough to take up activities outside school that are not automatically on offer as they would be at private, then you should embrace the grammar. Bear in mind that most private schools will also have a 13+ intake.

Its all about fit, and so depends on the school and child.

DD has very low processing speeds (bottom 1%) and unsurprisingly was placed 800th on the Grammar school wait list though very proud of being on the wait list , we also did not get any of our preferred state options and were allocated a troubled school some distance away, so she went private.

Her secondary education, and the support available, has been the making of her, and she has done far better that the Grammar average, plus has had load of other sports, leadership etc opportunities. So worth it, even if it did mean we had to count pennies. DS also missed out on a Grammar place, and was not offered any state school on National Allocations day, but also outperformed the grammar average, and started University well prepared.

But again there are plenty of kids who don't make use of the opportunities available and whose parents would have been better off saving their money. paying for educaiton does not guarantee results. DC also have to put in the work.

Needmoresleep and WOOt both very wise words. Schools always put on a hard sell. Private and State. You should take that into account when visiting any of them. What value do they add for your child. For your family. Sometimes being able to walk to school is the best thing for a particular child. They also highlight the best that they can, but what is right for some, isn't right for others. It's a messed up system across the board (that's a topic for another thread). As a parent it is important to navigate it and be knowledgable so that you can get the best you can for your child within your means, with what they are capable of achieving and with what is on offer in your area. I would have loved for all of my kids to go to the Secondary down the road from us, but truth is, it isn't a good school, they wouldn't be challenged or had the same opportunities they have at the selective state options they have been lucky enough to be able to get into. Had that been my only option, I would have accepted our private offers and figured it out as I went along to give them what they needed in terms of learning.

It is also worth considering the learning environment she is used to and how much preparation she needed to get where she is. Dd came from state to grammar and is loving being in a class where most of the 30 girls want to learn and children aren't being carried out screaming. Other girls came from tiny independents (10 or less per class) and find it harder to adapt to a bigger class. How do you think she will cope in a larger class? I don't think it is just intelligence but learning style to consider. She will probably be fine in either school so where do you think she will be happier?

I would go with the grammar school £100k is a great start on the property ladder. I'm wary of results, how many drop out at uni or are in the wrong careers. As long as a child has the opportunity to achieve if they want to, I'd be more concerned that they are able to become well rounded individuals.

And factor in the fact that it is usually easier to switch from Grammar to Independent at 13 or earlier if the Grammar is not working out, and kids will switch in both directions for sixth form.

So if you are really cannot make up your mind, start with the Grammar.

Can you visit both schools again and see what feels right?

Need more sleep thread hijack here, sorry ami. We have recently learned that our DS has a processing speed around the same as your DD and are trying to work out how to support him. He is currently in a small independent and not likely to achieve the marks needed at CE to get to the secondary we had selected and are now looking at non-selectives. We have been advised to get him a tutor as well as the school doing more 1:1 work with him. He is finding school in general to be enormously frustrating and he is having anger issues at home (he's an angel at school still!). He is somehow achieving average grades despite his difficulties.

Anyway, can I pick your brains about techniques to help with poor processing and how best to support him? Any advice on any aspects gratefully received.

We turned down our place at the grammar yesterday and have committed to the private sector for another 7 years.... paid out of income...
You can't pay for brains but private schools offer so much more in the way of opportunities, confidence, connections...

but private schools offer so much more in the way of opportunities, confidence, connections...

My daughter who attended a state school is currently studying at a place where there is a high proportion of independently educated young people.

She's recently described the waning of her friendship with a - in many ways pleasant - young woman from a moneyed background - who attended an independent school in London.

She has told me how this young woman persistently alienates people and misreads social situations because she has been brought up among people who have a great deal more money than normal. So that a good number of my daughter's friends either never really warmed to her in the first place, or - like my daughter - end up finding her a bit much. (Which means she becomes even more cocooned and cut off in her social fish bowl.)

So I would maintain that while independent education may confer advantages - particularly at a point where the budget for state education is being further cut - it is important to bear in mind that it may disadvantage children in other ways.

(Although if you have made the decision to shell out vast sums, you may be less inclined to give any weight to those disadvantages.)

Choose the sch that seems to be the best fit. If they are both good, I'd go with DD's choice.

ElinorRigby There were many independently educated students at the University I attended. One stands out as a complete knob, his superior attitude and last of respect for anyone else's views/life experience etc did not endear him to anyone (including the other privately educated students) but there were also a great many very lovely independently educated students who were fun, warm and engaging. One of my best friends went to private school, she's completely normal - apart from being a Tory voter! . Dh mostly works with people who went to private school and they are all perfectly fine people too.
I think to blame private education on someone's attitude is a bit of a stretch.

So I would maintain that while independent education may confer advantages - particularly at a point where the budget for state education is being further cut - it is important to bear in mind that it may disadvantage children in other ways.

I could tell lots of anecdotes about Cambridge students coming from state schools sneering at students from private schools, assuming that the latter will be less bright than them. I have also seen ex-state school students making fun of students from top private schools. I've seen plenty of private school students who got on well with everybody. I've seen state school students reluctant to socialise with people from different socio-economic backgrounds. Etc etc.

The point being that poor behaviour and not relating well to others are not traits exclusively of private school or of state school students. Ex-state school students can sometimes have their own issues, prejudices, chips on their shoulders. Indeed on MN we see a fair number of prejudices going in both directions.

Regardless of whether my DC go to private or state school, I, as a parent, can influence how they behave to others and give them opportunities to interact with a wide section of society. I am very unconvinced that my own DC would behave differently if I sent them to the (socially and academically selective) state school rather than the private school they currently attend.

Agree that your DD has to await your decision, but have you really listened to her, so that you understand why she currently prefers the independent? It would be good to take that into account.

You have my sympathies. So many people have an entrenched position about which is better, it must be very difficult to decide what is best for your DD, and your family. All the best.

This is a v FWP and you are fortunate OP.

I am very pro-grammar (am an ex-student and now governor of an excellent grammar school, and can see that the staff really care about what they're doing and that the system is constructed to bring the best out of the students) but can understand the attraction of an independent school of money was no object.

Think about how you want your child to turn out and your own social aspirations rather than the plethora of facilities that may be available (which might just end up being a distraction from academic achievement). If you have aspirations for Oxbridge and the independent has good form, then it's a no-brainer vs grammar.

If you want your child to associate with a diverse group of students with many parents coming from a professional background, go for a grammar. If you want her to associate with the super-rich and privileged in an environment and grow up with a distorted view of wealth, stick with the independent.

I am not sure that my position is entrenched. Some grammars are exam factories. A mate of mine was head of a well-regarded independent school and was very clear to parents that she wasn't running an exam factory and that she was looking at giving a broad education with loads of cultural enrichment. And if what parents wanted was the maximum A*s at any price, her school might not be the school for them.

But I don't think you can get away from the fact that the social mix will be very different at a fee-paying school. It doesn't mean to say that some of the rich children won't be lovely. It doesn't mean that everyone at the non-fee paying school will be lovely either. But I think when you are in your teens your peers really do influence you. And there is something to be said for a broad range of influences. (That might be almost as enriching as the opportunity to study Latin..)

Ellinor Rigby, you make some good points. This divide is so frustrating. In truth, state schools should have the same principals as private schools, to achieve the best for each child. Some state schools do this very well. So do some privates. I think a broad mix is very important in life, but so is a well-rounded challenging education that teaches children how to be free thinkers. The mix in the pot of schools is vast. So, find what works for you and keep an open mind.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts.

We turned down the grammar school place this morning in favour of the independent school. Not only do I hope that the girl on the waiting list is happy but I also wanted to update MN and give others hope!

But I don't think you can get away from the fact that the social mix will be very different at a fee-paying school.

The median price of a house in our state school's catchment is 700-800k. Around 20% of houses in catchment are over a million. The majority of parents are home owners, with very few people living in rented accommodation. The majority of parents have university education. The school has less than 3% of kids on FSM. Etc etc.

The social mix really isn't very different at our state catchment school than at DC's private school. I suspect that the same would be true at top selective grammars also.

If you want her to associate with the super-rich and privileged in an environment and grow up with a distorted view of wealth, stick with the independent.

Sigh. In the vast majority of private schools outside central London, there are very few super-rich pupils.

The median price of a house in our state school's catchment is 700-800k. Around 20% of houses in catchment are over a million. The majority of parents are home owners, with very few people living in rented accommodation. The majority of parents have university education. The school has less than 3% of kids on FSM. Etc etc. ...The social mix really isn't very different at our state catchment school than at DC's private school. I suspect that the same would be true at top selective grammars also.

I live in a major UK city that has grammar schools and also a couple of well known independents.

My daughter attended one of the grammars. We have connections with the independents - family friends who taught there, one of the heads was somebody knew, friends of my daughters including her first boyfriend went to the girls and boys independent schools.

It's undoubtedly true that middle-class parents colonise the grammar schools, partly via the ability to pay for coaching. (There's no catchment area.) And that the independent school offers some bursary help - assisted and free places. However, my daughter's friends at her grammar school included people whose parents were civil servants on low pay, cleaners on a low wage etc, a disabled single mum on benefits,as well as those who did well-paid professional jobs.

The one thing that has always stuck in my mind about the girls independent school - which in many ways sounds/sounded lovely - was a friend's account of a sleepover party she hosted for her daughter and daughter's friends (all of who went to the independent). At breakfast she had provided cereals juice, toast and pains au chocolat. And one of the girls looked very sniffy and asked whether either waffles or pancakes could be made available. My friend said she did have other issues with the entitled behaviour of her daughters' friends. I think she mentioned particularly households where both parents were high income and worked for long hours, and had no time to spend with their children - but compensated on buying them a great many of the material goods. Which the children, perhaps naturally began to take for granted. And as they only socialised with other affluent children, they just could not conceive not having designer label clothing etc.

At my daughter's school, though the majority of parents were comfortably off, the well-off children did all know other children who came from less lavish backgrounds.