GCSEs - is 8 enough?

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My DD's state school is allowing only 8 GCSEs to be made in Year 9 (East Midlands if it matters).

Compulsory GCSEs are maths, English language, English literature, double or triple science - so this leaves my daughter with only 2 more GCSEs to choose from as she's taking triple science.

Since EBacc is recommended and it requires to have one humanities GCSE and one foreign language GCSE, this effectively means she has to choose French (the language she studies) and Geography or History.
She says she wants to do both humanities subjects and wanted to do BPE as well - but not enough GCSE slots for this.
We discussed she could do BPE in Year 10, but it cannot be done as the school only allows for 8 GCSEs to be chosen.

The school won't accept more GCSE applications unless under exceptional circumstances. I understand they're coming from offering good support for 8 GCSE subjects so students who are not excelling academically can also reach their potential, but this leaves brighter children disadvantaged - or am I being too much if a Tiger mum?

What are our options - a mix of GCSEs and iGCSEs? Do I have any case to try and persuade the school to offer additional GCSE just because my daughter wants to do it?

At the end of the day I guess eight is just about enough since universities are looking at the strongest 8 - but I'm just not happy with not being given a chance for those who feel they can do more to try and achieve it.

Any ideas or thoughts are appreciated.

Same here Fredorika DS at very good independent & they do 9. Top set maths do 10 if they do Further Maths.

I suspect it is a funding issue. Education is so badly underfunded these days that school are paring their offerings down to the barest minimum. DD's school has a TV production team in today because they are making a programme about education funding. It is one of the most underfunded schools in the country.

"Are they definitely counting English literature as two subjects as my Sons school just count English and English lit as one subject and the study the two elements together (but obviously have separate exams)"

GCSE English language and English literature are counted as two separate subjects everywhere. They are shown as two subjects on the certificate and are counted as two subjects for the purposes of getting into 6th form and university.

"BPE stands for Beliefs and philosophy - sorry I thought this is what it is commonly referred to everywhere."

I have never heard of it. What is it exactly? Citizenship/RE?

BPE stands for Beliefs, philosophy and ethics.
This is what it says in the choices booklet:

What will you study?
Christianity A. Beliefs (Nature of God, Historical Jesus, Creation of the Universe, Resurrection, Heaven & Hell) B. Practices (Persecution, Evangelism, Festivals, Community, secularisation)
Islam A. Beliefs (Divisions in Islam, Allah, Prophets, Angels, Revelation of the Qu’ran, Life after Death) B. Practices (Five Pillars, Mosques, Shi’a Islam – struggles, Festivals)
Thematic studies: A. Relationships and Families (Gender, Marriage, Divorce, Sexuality, Relationships) B. Religion and Life(Origins of the universe & life, Environmental Ethics, Animal Rights, abortion, Euthanasia) C. Peace and Conflict (Peace and Justice, Protests, Use of Violence, War and Pacifism) D. Crime and Punishment (Capital Punishment, Suffering, Treatment of Criminals, Forgiveness)

I don't think there is a beliefs & philosophy GCSE. There is religious studies & some syllabi have a philosophy & ethics bias.

That's the same as the AQA RS GCSE spec my dd is studying.

Some courses at some universities want more. Medicine, Oxbridge come to mind.
Schools are ranked, inspected and their future decided on the number of children getting EBAcc used to be 5As-Cs with a floor level set by central government. If they do a wide spread the risk is fewer children getting the c and above in the 'right' subjects. Focusing on more reaching required grades is important for the school but not because they don't care about the children. Heads lose their jobs if exam performance is 'bad' even in schools serving very deprived communities where results have improved from previous years. MATs are not allowed to expand if some schools are 'underperforming' again, even if they serve the poorest of communities. They are compared to 'high achieving' trusts and schools who may be more selective or who have higher level of funding.
Could they do an extra subjects at home to boost results. There are good online tutors available.

Why the concern over meeting the the Ebacc criteria? With only 8 GCSEs I'd be focusing on choosing potential A levels, the Universities see Ebacc as a performance measure for the school, not the child..

When I did GCSEs it was standardly 8, and 9 if you were extra bright, 7 if you were struggling generally plus needed extra help in English (which meant you didn't do English literature).

Dd1 will have done 14 by the end of year 11. (2 in year 9, 2 in year 10, 10 in year 11). That's way too many realistically.

I think any university will give as much credit to someone who gets 8 grade 8/9 (new grades) as to someone who gets 12 6/7/8 gradings.

DS2 is in Year 9 now. He will do 13, it is standard at his (bog standard comprehensive) school to do a minimum of 12.

8 doesn't seem many, but 13 sounds too many to me.

If she wants to do science and maths based courses then 8 will be fine PROVIDING they are great grades in these subjects. It's when a child wants to do more humanity or creative degrees that doing 8 GCSEs becomes restrictive especially where schools insist on EBac. Universities including Oxbridge & those offering medicine cannot discriminate against children who went to a school that only offered 8 GCSEs - their words not mine - read the oxbridge info, 8 is fine. What will matter is predicted A level grades, personal statement and her personal interest in the subject she wishes to read. She'll probably be better doing triple science rather than double if that's where her A level choices will be as it's a jump from gcse to A anyway but having only studied 2 thirds of a science at gcse could mean a jump too far.

Some courses at some universities want more. Medicine, Oxbridge come to mind.

No they don't.

Apologies some criteria changed since we needed to know. Nine As at GCSE is highest 'minimum' required for U.K. undergraduate medicine now. Some do say that this is minimum though and students with minimum requirements are unlikely to be called to interview.

tiggytape is spot on with her answer.

The change to GCSE's is the reason that there is a drop in numbers - the kids just won't be able to do the GCSE's justice if they continue to do high numbers. DD's school (highly selective) has dropped to 9 GCSE's and that's completely fine with me - better to get 8/9 good GCSE's rather than 10/11 average GCSE's.

DD's school (she's also in year 9) also told us to not expect grade 9's across the board which again, is very realistic.

Both Cambridge and Oxford (when asked) only want 5 GCSE's at A/A* (7/8 under new grades) and 3 A levels.

Crumbs please tell me which universities want 9 as a minimum for medicine considering many of the top private schools have only ever offered 9.

What I think you might find they mean in terms of minimum is the grades achieved.

So if they say 9 A's is the minimum what they really mean is they would normally expect several A*'s (old grading system)

I can't believe some schools are still doing so many of the new GCSEs. It's just ridiculous. It makes me so happy they are sticking with 9 at mys ins school. They used to to do 11 or 12 of the old style ones.

Sticking with 11 or 12 for top set kids at dd's school
I also think it's too many

Way back when, my grammar school-turning-comp only allowed us to do 8 O-levels. Because I wanted to do all 3 sciences that left ridiculously little choice - the same as the OP's dd with geog for the humanity. I was really pissed off simply because I wanted to carry on being taught more subjects.

Sure, there's a happy medium, but with 8, you may not even be able to do all the 'academic' subjects you want (and are capable) of doing, let alone the others. I'm so glad DD escaped these changes so was able to add drama, comp sci and electronics to the mix - the latter of which turned out to be formatively important to her.

Do ignore any 'recommendation' to do the EBacc (unless its the subjects she wants anyway) - it is completely irrelevant for the student.

DD's school allows girls to do 9 GCSEs, under the new GCSE curriculum. It used to be 10/11 before that.

Now everyone does 9, and some can choose to do an after school class to study one other - Geology or a different language (which is limited mainly to those who already speak that language as an additional language at home.)

10+ are no longer recommended as a general guide. The new GCSEs are more rigorous and almost all have end of course examinations and limited, if any, coursework element. Likewise, doing a GCSE early isn't really advised either anymore.

I find this amazing. DD did 5 (maths, English, Spanish, geography and admin) at the equivalent national 5 level in Scotland. Does this mean our Scottish kids will be trailing their whole lives?

There are no requirement at Oxbridge, even for medicine, to have done 10+ GCSEs

Medicine at Oxford:

There are no formal GCSE requirements for Medicine. However, in order to be adequately equipped for the BMAT (see www.bmat.org.uk) and for the academic demands of the course, and if Biology, Physics or Mathematics have not been taken to A-level (or equivalent), applicants will need to have received a basic education in those subjects (for example at least a grade C at GCSE, Intermediate 2 or Standard grade (Credit) or equivalent; the GCSE Dual Award Combined Sciences is also appropriate).

Cambridge

There are no GCSE requirements for entry to Cambridge. Applicants have generally achieved high grades in subjects relevant to their chosen course, and most students who apply have at least four or five As or A*s at GCSE. However, there are always exceptions and one of the strengths of the Cambridge admissions system is its ability to assess all applicants individually.

Our research shows that post-16 examination performance is a much better predictor of degree success at Cambridge. While GCSE results are looked at as a performance indicator, this is within the context of the school/college performance and strong performance in Years 12 and 13 can make up for a less stellar performance at GCSE.

" Likewise, doing a GCSE early isn't really advised either anymore"

I disagree with this. DD2 is in the top set for Maths at her grammar - all the girls in her set got high scoring Level 6s in Maths in Yr 6, and they'll all take Maths & Further Maths GCSE. Frankly, they could all easily take Maths GCSE at least a year early (probably two), which would free them up to take another GCSE (which they might really fancy), or just take the pressure off the rest of their GCSEs.

Whilst the Oxbridge prospectus might say there are no formal requirements/grades required for Medicine, does anyone know of any medical undergraduate who didn't score a long string of As at O Level/GCSE and A Level???

We have quite a few friends who are doctors, and they all got impressive O Levels and A Levels. Friends DCs who are looking to take/are taking Medicine all have impressive GCSEs (at least 10) and are predicted/gained top A Level grades.

|Medicine is so over subscribed that medical schools can (and do) totally cherry pick their students.

I think the maths example is slightly different if it's children who will get the equivalent of A* in the maths AND the further maths.

However doing a random GCSE at the end of year 9/10 and kids coming away with a grade B/C whereas if they'd done it at the end of y11 when more mature and exam savvy is where the issues lie and why many schools have scrapped doing GCSEs (not maths in above situation) early, especially with the new curriculums and end of course exam system.