SW London - State primary to selective secondary?

[DanniiVass]

My DS is currently still in the early years at an outstanding state primary in SW London. He is very happy and settled, but for a variety of reasons we are considering whether to move him to an independent boys prep school that goes to 13+. I am really torn at the moment on what to do. He is very bright and academically able, he loves his current school - but due to the large class size and number of SEN classmates I'm worried that he is not really being stretched. Would really appreciate any first hand insights on how possible it is to get a place at selective state or indie boys day-schools in SW London from a state primary (and whether a lot of tutoring was needed?). I'm also concerned that choosing the 13+ prep school route might be restrictive - is it still possible to sit the 11+ for co-ed secondary schools (from a prep school that primarily focused on 13+ CE) or would this be totally different preparation needed vs the 11+ pre-tests? Many thanks - am one very confused mommy at the moment!

If you look at the destinations for other local boys preps there are nowhere near as many boarders. Last year there were a few from Newland House and 2 from The Mall. KH is known more for sending more boys to boarding schools so parents considering it are probably more likely to choose it over other local preps.
I can look at the destination lists for any of the local boys 13+ preps and all of the boys have senior school places despite their "limited options". Similarly, having followed the SW London 11+ threads for the last couple of years after waitlist movements everyone seems to end up with a couple of places. There is a lot of hype in this area about how competitive it is for school places but everyone ends up somewhere and they are usually happy with their choices.

I think we will see a gradual move over the coming years to 11+ for boys as well, led by Hampton/KCS. It's only a matter of time. My advice would be sit tight and find somewhere that will take him at 11.

Just my two bits worth as I have boys at a prep that goes to 13 too.
Despite no actual prep at the school for 11plus the boys are at an advantage over state school kids/I say this having spoken to local tutors. They don't need quite as much of an extra push as a kid who's been at a state school the whole time.
The tutors I've spoken to often comment on the difference. Obviously there are exceptional kids who will do well wherever they are.
Also bear in mind that many preps will have good links with the local indie secondaries - we have certainly found this to be the case.
Finally if you're looking at scholarships certainly out of the local kids we know it's quite rare for a state school kid to get these.

I'm sure someone is going to pipe now and tell us their purely state school educated got one but I am just talking of my experience which is basically this year - it is a lot tougher now to get into the really academic indies than it even was four or five years ago. KCS and Hampton were not easy exams this year at 11plus.
Btw I do think the 13 plus is the less stressful option for a number of reasons: boys are more mature by that age for starters!

the prep school kids are at a definite advantage.

• they don't spend yr5 and 6 preparing for SATS
• they will do verbal and non verbal reasoning in school
• they will spend more time on history, geography and their general knowledge will be better
• most of all the heads will be able to advise them re schools. as state school parents you really are in the dark as to where they should go/where they could get in
• at offers time, the prep head will get on the phone to the schools and fight their corner. The prep and secondary heads have a mutually dependent relationship! No state head will do this.
• sport is WAY better at preps, no matter how sporty/successful the state primary is, that'll just be a select handful of kids

However

• a state school primary parent knows the pitfalls of the state system and what you need to do to mitigate them and can weigh up the state secondary choices pretty accurately
• a local tutor can usually advise on suitable schools
• a bit of tutoring is way cheaper than prep fees
• there is less chat/competition/stress re independent choices /exams /offers
• the schools do take into account with primary the kids come from and how well prepped they are by the school.

and yes, DD1 was at state primary and received scholarships. She wasn't the only one!

I concur with what Amida says. DD was at a state primary and received two scholarship offers plus a grammar place. BTW hello Amida from the 2015 admissions thread!

With the 11+ option now growing at KCS and Hampton I think staying put at a state primary is a sensible potential option and will save money. DS1 and DS2 did 7+ largely because the odds were better than for 11+ at that time. If we were making the decision now I suspect we'd have kept them at the outstanding primary round the corner and I'd be taking glam holidays!

thanks all - we have had a bit of an exceptional circumstance within his year group at the outstanding state school, which we are concerned is pretty disruptive in an already big class size 😐 Hence considering other options at this point unfortunately. I really appreciate all the input and insights - thank you!

Its not unusual Daninivass. DS had so many class mates incorrectly diagnosed with special needs in Y2 at his outstanding state primary I was beginning to wonder if it was contagious. Most of them were just lively boys who needed to run around more, it gets even more difficult for them in junior school if they are expected to attend extra tutoring after school. Prep schools are great for boys because of the huge amount of games, PE and activities boys can participate in. Having been in a similar situation my only regret about moving to prep is that DS1 didn't start there.

I always laugh when I read comments that suggest private school is only worth paying for from Y7 onwards. Sixth form has to be the worst value for money of any school years, a friend at DD's school has calculated that she is paying £65 per lesson for her DS. GCSE year isn't any better.

I wonder if grass is always greener! Ours have been private from reception which I don't regret but seen so many friends' children do so well with a bit of top up tutoring at 11 it has always seemed like a good option to me, particularly with the SW boys' schools moving to 11 gradually.

Fair point about sixth form particularly with the bias against public school applicants at university level.

is there really bias against public school applicants at university admissions?

i thought that was a red herring, that there are "contextual offers" so if you are in a crap secondary you will get a lower offer for the same course (rightly so) than someone from an outstanding state secondary and/or an academic independent school.

happy to hear some evidence.

Why don't you look at Kew College? Very competitive at getting DC into the best selective secondaries at 11+. Personally I'd choose it over KH. I know lots of DC past and present at both. At KH it is standard to do extra tuition, at Kew College it is not so much. Or I'd sit him for 7 or 8+ Colet Court. My DS was offered a place there at that age from an outstanding Richmond state primary with no tutoring. Otherwise I'd keep him where he is. Plenty go onto selective secondaries from the Richmond "outstanding" primaries although tutoring does seem to be getting earlier and earlier and the Year 6 frenzy is a force to be reckoned with. My DC had all the disruptions you mention, bulge classes etc and did ok.

Just to add to this - we have been at an 'outstanding primary' and later a prep school and I really don't think you can compare the two. A prep school's purpose is to prepare a child for senior school. They fully support the parents and prepare (with regular exams, reasoning tests, interview practice etc) the child in finding a suitable senior school. We live in West London and although tutoring exists, in both sectors we have been in, I think it is more to do with the parents expectations of their children and the desire to push them academically into schools which the prep school may not think they are suitable for. If you have the money then a prep will provide more music, games, PE, drama and a broader curriculum. Primary schools are very focussed on SAT's and although no doubt you could move to a private selective senior school at 11+ I feel the extra's provided in a prep school are worth paying for. In my honest opinion you really can't compare the two! It isn't just about getting into a selective senior school it is more to do with finding the right school for the child. I also don't think 7-18 schools are a good idea as a child at 7 can be very different from one at 13.

Yep I have to agree - I pulled DS1 out of an oustanding state primary and sent him to a prep - it's like chalk and cheese. No comparison.
DS2 who I always worried would struggle with reading and school in general is thriving at the same prep.
The argument that you might as well spend the money on tutor fees instead of school fees does t really hold much water as it goes back to my earlier point that the kids in preps have a much better grounding before they even get to 11plus.

btw I found that prep school parents gossip far less than state school ones - there's just not the same school hate gossip and everyone knowing the ins and outs of everyone else's lives as half the parents are at work during school pick up.

No one really cares what every one else is doing.

I also agree with 123Missy. My dd want to an "outstanding" state primary and with hindsight I wish I had moved her to a prep.

This is because the state school did not push her to achieve her potential. I tried to push her but with little success when her school were consistently happy to accept from her work of a lower standard than she was capable of. She's not very driven.

There was no development or encouragement of her talents in art or drama and almost no opportunity to take part in competitive sport. There's a limit to the time you can spend on these things outside school.

There was no advice about what schools might be suitable. No one to make a case for her when she was on waiting lists for places at independent senior schools.

I do feel I let her down and wish I'd made a different choice for her.

Wow Wimbles .... "there's just not the school hate gossip and everyone knowing the ins and outs of everyone else's lives as half the parents are at work at work during school pick up".

What a thing to say - what percentage of state school parents do you think are at work during school pick up then ??? Surely you're not making a general statement that less are at work therefore there is more gossip!!!!

Please don't feel like you have let her down GQ Mum. We all make the best decisions we can at the time and obviously most people can't even afford private school fees. They are a luxury for a tiny percentage of the population. It isn't fair I know. Where is your daughter now? Places come up at private schools all the time so I'm sure you could reapply if you felt her current school wasn't meeting her needs.

Yes I haven't really found the parents to be any different at either schools. The usual gossip and panic about how their child is doing compared to others. I don't know Richmond but where we are apart from the very wealthy (at the prep) and social housing (at the state) the parents were very similar.

Thanks all, I really really appreciate all the different perspectives - lots to think about but leaning towards the prep as I think it's just a better fit for DS. The 11 vs 13+ is still a worry but we will just cross that bridge later. @ QGmum pls don't be so hard on yourself! I don't think there ever is one right answer and we are all just trying our best for our little ones - you most certainly did not let her down in any way!

btw I found that prep school parents gossip far less than state school ones - there's just not the same school hate gossip and everyone knowing the ins and outs of everyone else's lives as half the parents are at work during school pick up.

really? so all state school parents don't work and hate the school and gossip?

fwiw the parents at DD's independent are no different to DD2's state school parents. honestly. same mix of working/non working.

Good luck with your decision DanniiVass, never an easy one.
Your OP was "how possible it is to get a place at selective state or indie boys day-schools in SW London from a state primary?" and I think it is clear to say that it is perfectly do-able.

However, no doubt that the prep school route is a lot less stress - the school take a lot of the stress for you. If you're working ft and have the funds to allow you to do so then certainly I would go for a prep.

That's a big consideration for us - at the moment both myself and my OH work full time so the prospect of trying to fit in addition tutoring/11+ prep on top of everything in yr 4/5/6 feels pretty daunting - my quality time with DS is limited as it is!😐

Katy5299 I'm basing that on my local state primary which is full of middle class do gooders who quite frankly should go back to work but are instead busy bodying at school and over-parenting - the amount of gossip was unbearable quite frankly and eventually turned quite nasty - I really don't miss it!

Hi, please can someone advise me. We are going to be coming to the UK in July 2018. I would like to apply for my daughter to go a Grammar school - I understand she needs to do the 11+ assessment. Does anyone know if we can do it any time of the year (ie when we first arrive in the UK), and where do we get previous papers to work on? I'm very confused in terms of chicken egg. We need an address to apply for a school and need to apply early in the year for the September intake.How is this done then if we are only coming in July and will only know where we are living in June. Thanks,

LesleyA, the timetables for grammar exams will be on the websites for the individual schools you are interested in. They all have to have an admissions policy, which is published very clearly on their websites, but they will have different policies and exam timetables from each other. None of this information is secret, but you can't just take the tests when it is convenient to you.

Actually you need to do the CAF form by October 31st in the year prior to starting Secondary, ie. form by October 31st 2017 for starting in September 2018. Are you actually thinking of starting at a grammar two months after arriving in the UK? That won't be possible, I'm afraid.

You'll need to look at comprehensives, or private schools, but the popular ones will already be full. You would not be joining at the usual time and would have to see where the local council can find your child a place. Do you even know that your child would pass the exams? You really need to look at all the options, not just grammars.