French or German for GCSE?

[Sinkingfeeling]

DD1 (Y9) has to choose her GCSE subjects within the next few weeks. All three sciences are compulsory at her school so she realistically has only two or three options. She'd like to do History and Fine Art but is torn between French and German. Her grades for both are similar (slightly higher in French which she has been learning for a year longer than German), and she likes both equally. If she chooses German she's likely to be in a fairly small class but my degree was in French and another subject so I could give her more help with French. Any thoughts on which to choose?

I asked dh last night whether he has ever needed a foriegn language in the course of his career - he said once or twice opportunities have come up where French speaking was required.....Dh has an excellent memory and an O Level in French - did he feel qualified to conduct business in French - no way! He was offered a job by a top French company who have a London Office, a few years ago - his expertise was his selling point - GCSEs/O Levels do not appear on his CV, he was iterviewed by the CEO in English.
We were spoken to by the school about language choice - the amazing thing was they never mentioned love of a language, they never mentioned the fun and pleasure in communicating with somone in their native language....it was all Universities will be impressed and Law & Medicine require it - they made it a dull tick box exercise, with a mildly threatening suggestion that without it you'd face very restricted university choices (don't know where they are getting that info from because the Russell Group have suggested this isn't the case) . What an uninspiring talk. If this is how they are trying to encourage kids to study a language I can see why they are failing.
My dcs will study French despite all this because they want to, they have travelled in France, they have enjoyed speaking in French, they enjoy French cinema and French food, they can see a relevance to their lives.

German GCSE is hardly good enough for industry/engineering. A relevant degree with a year abroad in Germany is the way to go to achieve this goal.

It is precisely because others speak English that we have become lazy and I agree that schools hardly do a good job selling MFL. Unlike the vast majority of Arts degrees, you acquire a langage or two as well as the discipine of studying in another language, in depth, to degree level. Lots of MFL graduates would not expect to use their languages in the course of their work, any more than Historians or Philosophers use their knowledge. What MFLs do give though, are options. Graduates have language skills, research skills and have organised their year abroad which are transferrable to job market and show an MFL graduate can multi-task! (They can be quite bright too! Studying those difficult languages that no-one else wants to do because they are too difficult!)

French is spoken all over the world as both a first and second language.
Only Germany and Austria speak German.

German is the native language of Germany, Austria, Liechtenstein, most of Switzerland, South Tyrol (northern Italy) and areas of Denmark and Belgium.

It is also the most widely spoken language in the EU as mother tongue

A GCSE may not be particularly useful for working in that language, but if you were offered a studentship working for a company or organisation in a foreign country, then having GCSE level in that language would be a damn good start compared to not having it!

I was going to spend my gap year in Germany working for BASF, but then they decdied to save money and only get students in after their 2nd year of uni. Then was going to work in Berlin as a youth worker but the group was shut down.

More recently German has come in useful as some of the Eastern European parents at dc's school speak their own languages at me in a German accent and Germanic vocab, and I try both English and German, and communication happens.

German GCSE is hardly good enough for industry/engineering. A relevant degree with a year abroad in Germany is the way to go to achieve this goal.

Indeed. My dh spends time in Germany occasionally for work. All the science / work stuff is conducted in English the World over, but the little bit of German he does have, is an awful lot of help for getting from the airport to the hotel, hotel to work, feeding himself and travel around while he is there, and at least a polite attempt at initiating communication with his hosts. It just helps.
Obviously this would be the same for French, or any other language in the country you were traveling to.

i may have asked this before. I know op is talking about GCSE, but when you go on to A level are you 'competing' against bilingual students who push the standard up and tend to get the top grade? If so, is that effect more marked in French or German, do people think?

Op, I was going to say the traditional thing - do the one she enjoys more, but then saw she likes both equally! So I would say do the one she finds easiest - to reduce the burden a tiny bit in the GCSE year. Which I think in your dd's case is German - and you get the smaller class!

Why would German gcse classes be smaller than French gcse classes?

I think op's suggested German GCSE would be a smaller class than French - and indeed it already is in her DD's yr 9. I think fewer people choose it for GCSE, either because they find it more difficult or think it will be less useful.

A level German classes also do tend to be much smaller than French - fewer takers!

From bitter experience -

Neither are particularly useful languages to learn - but they have their uses in being easy languages to get to grips with early and prepare yourself for learning more complex or difficult languages. I don't think it matters which you learn - if you apply yourself well then you will learn the skills to teach yourself/ be taught more useful languages in the future.

It's a tragedy that MFL is diminishing. We moved school to get to somewhere where it had a substantial presence.

Not sure the ebacc is to blame. I think the it's a crap idea (one of many from Gove) in enforcing a certain pattern. It is for school league tables.

But there are many good reasons for studying languages that are nothing to do with the ebacc. A nearby comprehensive offers 5 including twilight options so all is not lost.

If there are so few taking GCSE in German, there is a risk they will not have enough interested students to run a viable A level course - eliminating a possible A level option.

Our state non selective school lets you do 2 MFLs for GCSE ( out of German, French & Spanish) and twilight lessons in Chinese and Latin, if you want. My DS is going to do German, but a friend of his wNts to do all 4 and is being encouraged to do so by his tutor. It seems DS and his friend are lucky but to my mind this should be the norm.

Some schools do teach two languages so it must be possible. My local grammar does so not sure how they get more time?

Well yes there are ways. For example, fewer English or maths or science lessons; only one expressive arts lesson a week; merge tech so resistant materials and food tech and textiles are on a rotation and they only get one lesson a week; longer school days/shorter lessons (we have 5 x 1 hour lessons; with a longer day you could have 6x 50 mins maybe?).

Some schools don't teach tech (it's quite highly valued where I teach but I know people whose kids don't have it as an option at all); maybe some schools minimalise RE or PSHEE; it's hard to say without having timetables and comparing.

Does your local grammar teach four hours of MFL from year 7 bojorojo? If so then I am impressed. And also surprised. Unless grammar means "school day runs from 8.30 to 4 with only a 45min lunch".

oh come on, GCSE level is useful in a restaurant but that is about it!!

let her choose whichever one she likes. it's really not that important.

fwiw i have A level french.
have never lived in france.
am hopeless at it. definitely couldn't use it in business without an additional immersion course / living in the country.

A friend of mine has a degree in French from 20 years ago - I was really surprised when she said she remembers very little and certainly would struggle to converse in French now - she went on to study Accountancy - never used her French any more than the odd weekend to Paris.

DD yr7 does 2 languages and 7 x 50 minute lessons over a two week timetable. so approx 3 hours a week. plus Latin 1hr 40 per week (4 x 50 minutes over two week timetable)

Depends on personal preference. I did both plus Latin, carried French onto degree level. At GCSE German is very logical with structured grammar which appeals to logical types who often didn't enjoy French.

Either could be useful in a scientific career - CERN for physics is in French speaking Switzerland..

French might be easier to get lessons in outside school if wanted later?

Preferred teaching staff can definitely make a difference if all other things are equal.

amidawish that's good to do two languages; 7 lessons over a fortnight is OK; but either she must do a longer school day or something else gotta give. Does she start early/finish late? How many 50 min lessons in a day?

6 x 50 min lessons.
finishes 3.50

BTW to all those saying GCSE in a lamguage is not going to make you fluen etc - no of course not! But it's a darn sight easier to take it further (A level, degree, post education evening classes, lessons done via your future employer who is keen for someone to be able to speak to the German supplier) if you actually have done the GCSE. That seems to me the key point - it's a start, isn't it?

from yr9 they drop some subjects, so she will move to Spanish + Latin. She could keep two languages if she wanted but they have to drop 3 subjects.

sorry for typos in language-related ranty post

amidawish ah, that's a later finish than lots of schools so maybe that's how they can do it.

Of course GCSE is not enough, it's the beginning of language learning not the end - let's be honest with our kids about this.