State v independent for secondary -

[Thomasina76]

I'm sure this has been done to death but considering secondary options for DSs. We are a couple of years away but would either need to move house to get into an outstanding state secondary OR go private. I looked around the outstanding state and was very impressed but then looked around the independent and was also very impressed, especially with the facilities and pastoral care. I'm not sure though that the huge additional cost is justified. It feels very difficult to chose between schools which are so different as you are not comparing like with like. Just wondered what swung people's decision and whether people feel there is a significant difference which justifies the huge fees for private.

It also will depend on your DS's personality and ability. My DS1 is quite bright, in his selective school,he has the chance to meet a group of friends who have similar ability to him, and it gives him some challenge to try to keep on the top of his class which I think is great. Meanwhile, a friend's son who is the same ability goes to a local good school( not the outstanding one), it is too easy for him to be the top of his class, I am not quite sure about the attitude he developed. He even thinks there is not much need for him to attend the lessons. However, he is quite confident, I guess it is a bonus.

It's really trouble to try to pick up a school. Actually we are thinking about the option for DS2 at the moment. As our local secondary school improves a lot in recent year, which makes our decision a bit harder than a few years ago for DS1.

I do think some schools do not push their bright children and possibly do not see too many of them in each cohort. So good enough ends uo being what they get and the bright ones get bored. So yes, where does your child fit into the school academically? Even in a private school, do they take everyone who applies or do they filter by selection?

Im not sure how helpful we're all being OP!! Few definitive answers; definitely go state/private, hopefully lots of food for thought?

claireblunderwood she is going to the US for a few months to work.

The idea is that she will keep up with her school work and come back from time to time to keep her hand in and ultimately to take her A levels.
In reality I am not sure that will happen (but she has options that are not connected to A level results - thank goodness - so I'm trying to chill the fuck out!)

I've just noticed you haven't mentioned your local state school. Have you looked round it? For work I've recently started visiting a number of state schools, I always read the Ofstead report/school website before I arrive. The one that I personally like the best so far in that it had the happiest staff/pupils and I liked the general behaviour/atmosphere wasn't the one with the best report/or glowing results. Interestingly my colleagues agree. Its worth looking at your local school after all you've nothing to loose.

ClaireBlunderwood, which area of London are you in? We are in London and face the same issue with moving costs - it wil basically cost about the equivalent of 5 years at private school.

Yes, for OP, the need to move to a less well area doesn't sounds great. Do have a look at the local state school, if it is a good one, then it is worth considering.

The other question I think is about the finance, I agree the other post. After the school fee, there are should be some money left for a good holiday and other activities. I do think it is OK to pay for the education, but not on a huge sacrifice.

I'm all for extra curricular activities and creativity! I attended a girls grammar, yes it did what it said on the tin, but I felt stifled. Going down the private school scholarship route has been an amazing opportunity for my children. They are at top prep/independent/music specialist schools doing a huge amount of what they love and the discounted fees has made this a possibility.

We took the state route for our DC - despite having both been at private schools ourselves and being able to afford fees. Family members who went down the private route thought we were mad - but our DC emerged well rounded and well informed and got outstanding academic results which allowed them to go on to first class universities. So we were very happy with our choice.
We were lucky in that we had outstanding state schools nearby with good extra curicular provision - and a critical mass of bright students. We would not have made the same choice for mediocre schools.
We were able to arrange transportation to supplementary sport, music and drama classes. It helps if you live in a big city. And whatever the private schools say you are going to get vastly superior sport, music and drama tuition in settings which attract 1000s of motivated and gifted children than you are in a private school with 800 students divided up across the various fields. It is more hassle to chauffeur kids there and back when they are younger - but it is doable.
My biggest issue with private schools is the limited nature of the peer group. They pay lip service to diversity and they do attract a range of nationalities, but they are all children from wealthy and/or privileged backgrounds. Even the wealthiest foundations offer only a handful of full bursaries - and then only to children who at 13 can demonstrate that they are exceptionally bright and have an additional outstanding talent. None of these children come from disadvantaged backgrounds. The odd one might come from a family with no money - but to be achieving at that level at 13 you have to have really supportive parents. Living among such a limited peer group does not prepare young people well for life.
I thnk many people think that private schools buy advantages in life. They do to an extent. But most of the kids attending them already come from advantaged families and would do equally well at good state schools.

"And whatever the private schools say you are going to get vastly superior sport, music and drama tuition in settings which attract 1000s of motivated and gifted children than you are in a private school with 800 students divided up across the various fields."

There is most definitely truth to this. However, I do think that DC benefit from being in a setting with lots of activities to "taste". We weren't in a position to have the DC taste much at school but we sent them to summer camps with 30+ sports on site so they could work out what they enjoyed.

We live in a nice, rather unique, completely overpriced house in North London. To buy something similar would involve stamp duty costs that would pay for two kids to go private (at least). We also love our house, have spent ages doing building works to make it right for us and it's located perfectly for commutes.

If you go to a school without moving (private or state), you can always change the school if it doesn't work out. If you go through all the palaver of moving then you're very committed. Over-committed since you never can know how things are going to work out...

Ps wow Curl that sounds an amazing opportunity for a 17-18 year old. Albeit one that involves a fair bit of parental chilling (two words that rarely go together).

Regarding extra curricular activities, I agree that (with a few honourable exceptions) when DC want to undertake them to elite levels then you need outside providers.

That said, I wouldn't recommend doing many activities to that standard - they are highly time and energy consuming and can begin to suck out the fun for even the most committed - swimming training at 6am, 4 times per week, no thanks!

What you can get at public schools is plenty of choice to try out all sorts and then a good enough standard to make proper progress. For a lot of activities that's great. Far better than trooping all over the shop after school, especially when homework and revision begin to loom ever present!

That said, you can sometimes drop lucky even with the elite stuff. For example, DD has received far superior training in drama at her school than anything outside and that includes NYT.

claire it is a great opportunity and she is extremely excited.

I just wish it had come up a few months later so she could have taken her A levels then worked in her gap year. But it didn't and she can't.

She leaves tomorrow .

I have to agree with 5notrumps. I have a DD in excellent State school that does stream and does a super selective stream. She turned down top privates in the country and it was the right decision. Hew school is truly diverse and academically rigourous. But, it depends on the child and depends on what options you have before you. I think it is best to keep an open mind about these things and go with what you feel is right for the child and your family situation. My other DC were moved to a private primary after I lost faith in our local school which they had attended. This was more about my middle DS's happiness. It has been great academically and the children are really nice at this school, but my DS does say he wants to go back to State for Secondary. He doesn't think the private school is in "the real world' and the kids are sheltered he says. He also says it isn't racially/economically diverse. It isn't. Especially compared to where he was before. He missed that and so do I. But, he is going for private schools and state schools now in year 6. We will see what offers he receives and make a decision from that. I'm keeping an open mind, but I think you can get just as good if not better of an education in the state sector when the school really is on their game. However, not everyone has that choice depending on where they live and what is in their area. It's all a gamble. I'd throw as many dice as possible and see where you land.

I completely agree with notenoughsleep. My DD chose to go back to state after a stint in a private prep for her last years of primary. She also felt it wasn't real life and despite being in a very diverse part of London it in no way reflected the racial or ethnic or economic diversity of London she was used to from her state primary. She is very happy at her state secondary- we are lucky it's a good one but as with all schools it's not perfect. But she and I really value having the range of children and parents from all groups of our society. I personally think this side of many state schools- not all of course- is undervalued. There is also an expectation of academic excellence across a range of abilities and I don't feel that she has to dumb down at all. It is a real dilemma on whether to move and perhaps you need to re look at both schools and possibly any local options to compare to..

Go and visit all the options early, speak to parents whose children go there and you'll soon get a feel. Don't opt for long commutes, locality is key for teen happiness and ease of accessing after school stuff.
For us, after a great state primary DD went fee paying for secondary. We live in a comprehensive area where the few schools we have are poorly funded and overcrowded. The conservative council build more and more homes without any schools to accompany, and catchments are vast. There are enough wealthy families that the top set of our primary pretty much got creamed off to the private schools, church schools, and some to the next district to access the grammars. The independent schools as a result are over subscribed and highly selective. Funnily enough we didn't warm to the most selective school as it felt like a hot house and opted for the one where the kids all seemed happy. DD is working at a fast pace, it is cool to want to learn, kids behave well and are busy and pastoral care is fab. There are state secondary schools that deliver on all these things of course, just not ones we can access.

We were toying with the idea of moving to a larger home, when instead we swapped DCs from state to independent sch. Currently in different 6th forms and fees are £33k p.a. (boarding) and £19k p.a. (day). Looking back, I'm still happy with the decision we made, despite feeling somewhat poorer for it.

Most independent schoos do not have a diverse range of parents because money generally prevents that and generally bursaries go to the middle class who want to hae the money but don't. Also, lots of people do not live in culturally diverse areas, and some that do, wish they didn't. Some people are conditioned to go to independent schools and would never go anywhere else. They come from generations of privately educated folk. Others are first time buyers. Whatever a parent decides, make sure it is the best choice for the child. Make sure the teaching is good and make sure they get the lifestyle and friends they want. If your child wishes a culturally diverse group of parents and children at school, then facilitate this if it means more than anything else. Go where you fit in, whether it is with the super-rich or the very poor.

I wouldn't worry too much about this social diversity thing. For the people like us who are hesitate to decide about private or state education, mainly because we are not rich enough to pay the fee comfortablely and local state is not great. We are ordinary people, our family and friend cycle are all ordinary people, DC has enough chance to mix with ordinary people. It won't hurt DC to see there are rich people in this world, there are people who earns a lot of money than us. Like DC1, in his school, the majority of sutdents actually come from profesional family, not rich, only small number of children from very rich family. And he also has friends who has bursary and from slightly poorer background. Of course, our school is only a selective day school, I am not talking about the boarding school. I know that is a completely different story.

The outstanding state school which is 30 minutes drive away from us, doesn't have a diversity background at all, as the houses surrounded the school are all big houses, and we all know that area is a rich area.

You must be out of London or in the Home Counties for the state schools not be diverse. Inner London isn't like that at all, but our relatives in the Midlands live in a relatively poor area and I would say there is very little diversity there. It just depends. Good Luck with the education minefield. I think however you can find a good balance in any situation, with any background is usually the best option.

Also, if a child is motivated and they have inspiring teachers, I do think they can thrive anywhere with the support of their family even if the school isn't rated outstanding. It depends what they do offer.

Exactly AutumnSky. TBH, not sure we have the luxury of less essential considerations like that. Whatever we do, we are not going to have a huge range of choice and it will involve either forking out a lot of money or moving.