Putney High vs Wimbledon High or alternatives

[HermioneGrangersWand]

Our DD's teacher has suggested these schools for her at 11+ next year.

DD is bright but sensitive and can be anxious, so we are looking for the holy grail of a girls' school that is academically stretching but not overly pressured and with great pastoral care. Her academic and extra-curricular interests are more creative than, say, scientific/sporty.

I have been to visit both schools and am finding it hard to distinguish between them - clearly both great academically, the girls who showed us round were fabulous, both heads were impressive and both schools talked very convincingly about pastoral care. Obviously we may not be fortunate enough to have to choose between them!

I would be very grateful for views from people with personal experiences about the main differences - if any - between the schools or if there are others in SW London that might suit. We would happily consider less academically renowned schools if they could still provide challenge and the pastoral care was good.

Many thanks!

There are quite a lot of girls who get the train from Clapham Jct to Woldingham, and Woldingham school run a minibus pick up from the station. Strong academics without being quite as selective or pressurised as some of the London schools, fantastic grounds/facilities, very nurturing. It is Catholic but not noticeably so and probably half of the intake are not Catholic.

Not meaning to be harsh! I think it's good there are gentler alternatives to places like JAGS but it doesn't necessarily mean that girls who'd thrive at one would flourish at the other. Certainly the girls dd knows who are at SCHS would be miserable at her school but are very happy there. Personally I hope that places like SCHS and Emanuel stop trying to get into the academic top flight as that would leave a lot of kids floundering with no obvious place to go

True I just think describing schools as places people only go to if they don't get more academic options is unhelpful. As you said it's horses for courses and as much about ethos as anything else IMHO.

I think it's still the case that SCHS loses out and if people get offers from Jags or Alleyns they take them in preference to SCHS
I've not heard anything to suggest Woldingham is academic

This all sounds very elitist and IMO girls often get into the 'academic' schools due to over preparation from prep school or tutoring. In that case academic doesn't equal intelligence. I'm shocked at the snobbery and divisiveness on these boards. It's divisive and gives independent education a bad name.

Well I suppose it depends on what you call academic AveEldon. The 2016 GCSE results at Woldingham were 74% A/A, 93% A-B which was better than the other non-London girls schools in the area (Old Palace 85% A*-B, Croydon High 86%, Greenacre 73%). Given that they are only moderately selective, and it is not a high pressure environment, we found it a very good balance, but it won't be for everyone.

We're going slightly off topic now but...At my DS' school no-one took up their Alleyn's offers including scholarship offers
So unless your kids are at St Pauls, Wesminster, KCS, NLC there's always going to be somewhere more academic.

But everyone can't be in the top 1% and all of the schools that have been mentioned are good academic schools in the grand scheme of things.

But everyone can't be in the top 1% and all of the schools that have been mentioned are good academic schools in the grand scheme of things.

Agree wholeheartedly with this.

Thanks to everyone for the very interesting responses.

To answer a couple of questions, we have looked at Alleyn's and Woldingham. Both very impressive, but I didn't see anything to make me think Alleyn's would be gentler than other academic schools and the journey to Woldingham put me off. We might look again though.

It's a difficult decision - thank you for all the food for thought.

The more I see of secondary schools, the more I am convinced that selectivity at entry gives the schools public exam results.

Because all these schools teach well, and their clever girls will have their strings of A*s. That there are more girls like that in some schools is because of the perception of certain schools.

And there's definitely a mood if 'we really like SCHS, but we'll probably go for a school that's more academic / 'higher' status / more fashionable with parents'. I have come across parents who manage to discard that, and choose the 'lower' performing school where they believe their DC will be happiest, but that's rare.

I think the bottom line is that all these schools are very good, and contain all sorts of girls. It's possible to screw yourself up over terribly small differences - I know I did, especially first time round and could not have been talked out of it whilst it was going on.

Alleyn's btw is of a similar academic output to JAGs and Dulwich College (all routinely well in the top 50 of the tables). Reputed to be artier, also reputed to be much more socially sophisticated. Slightly more 'sink or swim' under current head to previous, in the sense that pupils need to be self-starters and proactive. But of course still has the level of pastoral care you'd expect.

Thanks AnotherNewt. I agree with you - the girls who get into SPGS/JAGS, etc are going to get great exam results practically anywhere. DD's school says she is fortunate enough to be of that calibre, so I imagine she would do well at 16 and 18 at any school and am much less interested in which school gets the best results overall than in which school will give her the best experience for 5 or 7 years.

But that is hard to judge. If the majority of parents who are offered more reputedly academic schools take them, are the "less academic" schools set up to stimulate and challenge the brightest girls? And do those girls have much of a peer group? Also, if the previously less well-renowned schools are trying to improve their exam performance, will they remain relatively unpressured?

Coming back to the thread title, I would also be very grateful to hear from parents at Wimbledon or Putney, which I have been advised get the balance right by providing a good level of academic rigour without being overly pressured.

Hermione We will be facing almost exactly the same decision soon (dd1 is in Y4), so I'm following and hoping I can learn from your experience. I wanted to ask, how do you know she's SPGS/JAGS calibre? Are you at a prep? DD1 is at a state primary, so even knowing where to aim is hard, but she's certainly very academically able, needs that sort of peer group, but also tends to be anxious and a perfectionist, and I worry about how that could play out in a very competitive environment.

Hi FlumePlume. I don't know for sure - she goes to a prep school and I am just going on what they say based on their experience. They didn't give any guarantees, just said that she ought to get in anywhere, subject to the usual caveats.

Have pm'd you, OP

DD had offers from PHS, WHS, JAGS as well as a place at Tiffin. We didn't sit SPGS but I suspect she would have got an offer if she had.

She is academically very able and if we'd gone with league tables we would have opted for JAGS or maybe Tiffin. We chose PHS.

Our thinking was that the culture was academic without being overly so. We thought it would be good for her self esteem to be in a school where she could regularly 'do well'. This was important for her personality. Her brother is at one of the sought after London schools and although he is also very able he rarely wins prizes or accolades. He doesn't seem to mind but it sometimes makes me a bit sad for him.

But as others have said, these are all good schools and there isn't a lot to choose between them.

Academically both PHS and WHS are quite similar. Historically PHS has had the slight edge (in terms of results) but I think WHS may have done slightly better in the last set of results.

I do think there are good reasons to send a high achiever to what some might consider a slightly less prestigious school.

I don't know if it helps, but when making a similar decision, we looked at where DD might like to meet up with teenage friends, and decided on Wimbledon. Nice, safe town centre, lots of sports clubs (if sport is her thing note WHS is hockey, and PHS is lacrosse, WHS have a pool but PHS have rowing) and a good balanced catchment (slightly less Central London).

In the event DD got a place at her aspirational school, but would have been very happy at WHS. She has regularly met girls from both and I would agree with other posters there does not seem to much in it. I don't think we met anyone who was unhappy with their choice.

Its worth noting that fees at WHS and PHS are pegged slightly lower than several of the alternatives, especially those just north of the river.

One tip a friend gave me was to contact the schools once you get your offers and ask where your child fell within the cohort who got places. In her case her DS was near the bottom at his most 'academic' choice which helped them decide.

I agree with Need More Sleep (I usually do!) that it is worth having a think about "where would be good to be a teenager", because it is all part of the experience. Loafing around after school/quick trip to Accessorize or Superdrug with your mates is actually important in the life of 11-17 year old girls, and is a great way of them becoming a bit more independent and streetwise.

One of the things that put us off LEH was simply that it is a "bus in/bus out" type place, with friends potentially coming from a long way away. Zero opportunities for discussing your homework project over a coffee and considering the merits of a various different brands of cheap mascara.

Thanks

I am not sure that I agree with eeyore about knowing where you are within the cohort.

1. There is sufficient demand that none of these schools will take kids they think might struggle.

1. Our observation was that kids doing least well were not the less bright, but those who did least work. Teaching is normally very good, and so any child who listens in class, and does there homework will do fine - certainly up until GCSE.

1. Applicants will have vastly different levels of preparation. When DD was 7, she came home and asked if she could have a tutor, because one of her friends had a tutor on both Saturdays and Sundays. This girl did get into a popular secondary school which rejected DD, but aged 18 DD is going on to an academic degree, the other girl to something more vocational.

1. They all have different strengths and progress at different rates. DD is dyslexic, but came into her own in the run up to GCSE when maths and science got more complicated and some started to struggle with concepts. Inevitably she bumped along the bottom in English, but still walked away with a decent GCSE grade.

1. It depends on the child. DS really enjoyed education, and loved being in a very academic school with interesting teachers and clever friends. He did not mind much where he sat in the year group. DD, perhaps because of the dyslexia and the awful labelling that she got at her prep, was more insecure and needed to be at least in the middle. And benefited from being at a school where class position was played down and qudos given to music, drama, sport and other achievements.

The bigger decision is deciding the type of school that will suit your child, and even within South West London there are big variations in culture with some schools being more nurturing and others being really quite competitive. And if you get offered a place, don't worry about whether your child is good enough. Schools are good at selecting and usually get it right.

Sorry - I wasn't meaning the child would struggle as such. More that some children do better being at the top of the class whilst for others having competition and kids ahead of them encourages them. Depends on their personalities.

Needmore The bigger decision is deciding the type of school that will suit your child, and even within South West London there are big variations in culture with some schools being more nurturing and others being really quite competitive.

And this is my million dollar question ... how does an outsider find out which are those nuturing schools and which are the hard core competitive ones? (once your DD is in ... obviously they're all fairly competitive to get into!) DD1 is sitting G & L, PHS, WHS & LEH in Jan and to my 'outside eyes', there are positives to all her choices; the real difference would come if I could work out what the different cultures were, away from 'Open Evenings' so we could make a better guess where she'd actually be happiest (hoping we get an option). Because 'competitive yet respectful of each other/supportive' is VERY different from 'competitive and jealous of others' achievements/determined to win at all costs' for example.

Any pearls or even generalisations about those schools would be very welcome!

I think the depth of sports teams is enlightening
do they only have A and B teams?
or do they go down to C, D, E?

what proportion of their first years represent the school in a fixture? even once?

it shows whether the school is a "we are the best" or a "we all give it our best" culture

also how are they streamed for eg maths?

is it loose streaming (eg a top set, 3 middle sets and a support set)

or levels 1-6?

again, quite enlightening re "hierarchy" and how it is encouraged rather than managed

nocamping That's really interesting, and something I should have thought of. I went to one of the 'top' schools, years ago, and the streaming worked exactly like that. Two science sets for GCSE (so half the year in each), four maths sets from the second term (no early GCSE for bottom set), no other setting that I recall. And a refusal to let us do ridiculous numbers of GCSEs. Plus huge encouragement for us to follow our own interests, and invest time and effort in those. All that is what I want for my kids.

Some good suggestions above.

It depends a lot about what you are looking for from a school and about your child. The best thing you can do is visit a lot of schools. Its then a bit like buying a house. You start to realise what you want, often from other parent's questions and the answers they get, and what feels right. Then of course, the schools select...not always you, so it is important to find schools that both you and your child feel positive about.

It can then be a matter of luck. DD was fine. She had good SEN support, got good GCSE results, played for various sports teams, discovered a love for art, and after some Yr 7 wobbles (which the school tackled brilliantly) rubbed along well with her class mates. However she was perfectly happy to move for sixth form and then had a ball. A lovely group of friends, real academic challenge, engaged in everything (almost). She had found her place and enjoyed every minute. Plenty of DC were not interested in moving; they were happy and settled and had already found their place.

There are a couple of good suggestions above. Other things to consider, and there will be more, are:

1. Journey. Length, reliability, safety and alternative routes.

1. Catchment. Do ask where other pupils come from. CLGS was reasonably accessible to us, but most of DDs classmates would have lived in North London. In DDs first school most of her friends commuted in from the west of the school, not the east like her, so she tended to be left out of informal gatherings and was on the tube on her own. Also socio-economic catchment. Some schools, especially in Central London, can be quite bling with a Tamara Ecclestone type element. Others, say if they offer IB, may attract members of London's affluent and successful international community, who will be focused on entry to American or European Universities. Other's will be perceived as more "down to earth" and perhaps picking up kids who narrowly missed Tiffin. Diversity does no harm, but we saw some quite different approaches to education. Grades, class placement and responsibility/representation matter on American University applications, so competition can be unexpectedly fierce, even for minor school positions.

1. Breadth of intake. DS switched at 13 so it was easier. Kids selected at 11 will change, with some finding their feet later, whilst others may fade. My preference would be for a school that offers a good range of University destinations, and where it is clear that the most able are getting to Oxbridge/medical school but where others have found different directions. In some schools I suspect it is possible not to realise that it is OK not to be academic. (Or that in real life there are a range of other skills needed to be both successful as an adult and in a career.)

1. Does the school offer the right extra curricular. Is your DD likely to be interested in drama, debating, or rowing? What standard is it? Some schools can prove a big disappointment because of the need to compete for a places, with little provision for the quieter child who needs encouragement to put themselves forward, or who is new to, say, team sports. Also the right academic options. A very maths/science girl might do better at a larger or co-ed school where the top set will be stronger. What languages? How many GCSEs. Double or triple science?

1. Size and type of school. Do you want a small school where your child will be nurtured, or would your child be pushing at the boundaries. From observation, "sparky" girls often do better at co-eds, partly because the school is experienced in wider range of behaviour, but also because peer-pressure discourages too much interest in boys. DS was almost certainly happier at quite a "nerdy" school. A prep school peer of DDs thrived at SPGS, but she was always very identifiably a Paulina. Others wilted amongst a pretty confident and competitive cohort.

1. How do they handle Yr 7. DD was well into Yr 8 before she came across anything she had not covered in her prep, which was fine, as she was able to switch from a child who had been labelled "non academic" to one who was considered clever. Some of her peers though were working very very hard, as they struggled to learn reams of French and Latin and get used to homework. They more or less sorted themselves out within the year, but it is worth considering what you are letting yourself in for.

1. The Head. What do they say about the school culture. What are their priorities. It is a competitive market place and schools will have different visions. (I was reliably told that G&L aims to be nurturing, not least to provide a clear alternative to SPGS.) If there were a real problem (serious illness, family crisis) would they be someone you could comfortably go to. Are they likely to be running a happy staff room (really important) or was their speech all "I", "I", "I". How long are they likely to be there. Note though that in our experience some of the best heads don't do the parental "meet and greet" very well and seem to prefer activities around the day to day running of a school.