Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Flip

1 2 3

Original poster

What's God got to do with it?!

58 replies

Fruitflylady · 13/10/2016 10:43

I'm a bit cross; choosing a secondary school for my yr 6 DS and our closest school (10-15 min walk) is judged outstanding, great exam results, amazing facilities (it has a swimming pool ffs!) etc., etc. The only problem is that it is a catholic school and as such we are right at the bottom of the admissions criteria, my son having the misfortune to have been born to atheist parents.
The next nearest school is a fairly bog standard comp, recently downgraded by ofsted to 'requires improvement'.
The next after that, actually in the town we live in, but a good 40min walk, has been 'requiring improvement' for the last goodness knows how many years, is undersubscribed, suffers a bad reputation, in the middle of a council estate, and is now undergoing a consultation with the local council to either academise it or merge with the nearby outstanding junior and infant schools to become a 4-16 through school. On the plus side, they have an amazing headteacher, who is full of enthusiasm and ambition, and on my visits to the school I have been impressed by how happy all the students and staff seem. Their exam results are appalling though!

What on earth should I do? How can I choose between these schools?!

OP posts:

Manumission · 14/10/2016 09:11

who have no choice but to send their kids to the more under-resourced school just down the road (this was why I mentioned the council estate location, it's not that that was one of my reasons against that school, Pottering)

That was almost a convincing save OP

user1476140278 · 14/10/2016 09:13

Send him to the closest one and devote your time to helping it improve.

BertrandRussell · 14/10/2016 09:26

"If the Catholic school was crap OP wouldn't care that the faith element was preventing her DC going there. People only tend to get aerated about faith schools when they are performing better than surrounding schools.
The nearest Outstanding school to someone else might be single sex and your DC not that sex. If you don't share the faith of a school it's the same - simply not a school you can choose."

OK. Let me unpick this a bit. First, faith schools only perform better than surrounding schools when they are oversubscribed. Undersubscribed faith school's are no different from other schools in the area. This is because oversubscribed faith schools select. That is, the parents whose children get in are in the main better organized/more switched on/ have more time and energy to devote to their children's education. The children of parents like this do better whatever school they are in. And the more of them there are in a school, the better the school will perform. It is the oversubscription followed by selection that makes the school perform better, not the faith.

Secondly, saying that a faith school is "simply not a school you can choose" is obviously objectively true. But what you are saying is that people are being denied access to a tax payer funded institution simply because of their lack of faith. They are paying the same taxes as people of faith, but have access to a third fewer schools. imagine if the same rules were applied to hospitals, or libraries. And it is important to remember that people of faith can freely apply to non faith schools.

Saucery · 14/10/2016 09:35

They are also, most importantly, Catholic. Which is the main selection criteria for admissions. Not Catholic? Can't hope to get in unless it is undersubscribed.
There are other schools in the area. No use complaining they aren't as good if you are atheist. Be one of those organised, switched on parents at that school then.

Saucery · 14/10/2016 09:37

They are not being denied a tax payer funded education. Just not the one that, despite having to believe in all the pesky faith stuff, is the best in the area.

BertrandRussell · 14/10/2016 09:42

That's fine. So long as all non faith schools have an admissions criterion that says practicing Christians go to the back of the queue.

Or that practicing Christians can apply to faith schools or non faith schools but not both.

Saucery · 14/10/2016 10:01

I'd be fine with that.
Thread title asks what's God got to do with it?
Quite a lot, bringing up Catholic children in the Catholic faith being pretty important to Catholic parents.

What OP and many other parents are saying is that faith isn't on their radar in life until the school down the road is Outstanding. Which is tough.

nocampinghere · 14/10/2016 11:58

why do you think the Catholic school is so outstanding?

do you know that those parents have to contribute at least 10% of the school's maintenance fund?

practicing Christians can apply to faith schools or non faith schools but not both. i actually agree with this. Fwiw when priests sign the "Certificate of Catholic Practice" form they do ask which schools you are applying for and expect your top choices to be ALL Catholic schools and not mix and match. It would be fairer to enforce a choice of all religious or all non religious schools.

nocampinghere · 14/10/2016 12:05

And to clarify, faith schools can't choose from their applicants. Once they meet the criteria of practicing baptised catholics it usually then goes on distance. Admissions are handled by the local authority, not by the school or the church.

BertrandRussell · 14/10/2016 12:07

"What OP and many other parents are saying is that faith isn't on their radar in life until the school down the road is Outstanding. Which is tough."

I think you'll find that faith isn't on many parents' radar until they discover they can't get into the school down the road and somebody from 5 miles away can.

As I said. Think of the idea of faith hospitals or faith libraries. Ridiculous, right?

akkakk · 14/10/2016 12:14

just that I'm cross because government resources have gone to support this exclusive form of education, and it seems to be at the expense of other, mainly poorer families who have no choice but to send their kids to the more under-resourced school just down the road

sorry - this is total tosh
are you saying that there is some government department that gives more money to a school because it has a Catholic / religious emphasis - sorry, not sure it works like that...

there will be all sorts of reasons why one school is more middle class, and the other less / why one is better resourced & the other not so well kitted out / why one is performing better & the other not... many of those reasons may indeed be the culture / ethos / rules / drive / atmosphere of a Catholic school v. the more traditional state school - but to suggest that it is because of government resources supporting those differences is perhaps not quite right?!

basic way education is funded:

money per child
extras where children might need extra support (e.g. FSM etc.)
some money may be creamed off e.g. LA run school v. all going to the school e.g. Academy
extra funding can be available for political initiatives (new builds / academies or free schools /etc.)
money raised by parents / school / supporters / sponsorship / etc.

nowhere in there is arbitrary funding for Catholics....

Saucery · 14/10/2016 12:15

I think I did find that, Bertrand, as that's what I said

Original poster

Fruitflylady · 14/10/2016 13:01

Well maybe all I mean is that the education system is unfair in this country, and it really isn't helped by throwing these religious schools into the mix. However you look at it, this local RC school is creaming off the brightest kids, and bringing them in from miles around to continue boosting their exam results and perpetuating the whole cycle.
I'm sorry if I come across as snobby and pushy, and only concerned about it at the last minute. That isn't true about me, and for what it's worth, we'll probably be choosing the small, undersubscribed, under-performing town school because I think that's where DS will be happiest.
In the meantime I've also started volunteering at that school, running a science club.
What I would really love is for that school, and the othe bog standard one down the road, to have the same resources as the RC school. That would be fair, wouldn't it? But how do we make that happen?!?

OP posts:

BertrandRussell · 14/10/2016 13:09

The schools will have the same resources- just different cohorts. Because selection.

But Christian privilege is so entrenched in out society that there is no chance of doing anything about it. And the "I''m all right jackery" of the Christians on Mumsnet has to read to be believed.

Orangetoffee · 14/10/2016 13:30

They have the same resources, the catholic school just has the shinier, more up to date versions.

The system sucks and you do not come across as snobby and pushy.

Original poster

Fruitflylady · 14/10/2016 13:34

And another thing....that catholic school isn't outstanding because it's Catholic, unless people are suggesting that god is somehow smiling on these kids, providing them with their shiny new home ec dept, and their lovely shiny exam results (and if he is, what a precious, vindictive little god that would be)
I still don't see that there should be any place for religion in our education system (excluding the odd RE class of course). It is divisive and exclusive, and quite simply not fair.
(Stamps foot and throws toys out of pram)

OP posts:

Sancia · 14/10/2016 13:52

Taxpayer's cash ensures that in the 10 mile radius from my house, there are just 3 schools that take heathen children. The rest are Jewish, Catholic, Islamic and Christian. You might get a few heathens slipping in if they were lucky enough to get to the bottom of the admissions list, but the rest of us have to fight over the 3 plain ol' Schools, and then be shipped out to neighbouring towns and cities.

I am an avid supporter and active campaigner of the Free Schools Admission appeal, which aims to remove the religious discrimination in our education system.

HeCantBeSerious · 14/10/2016 13:56

its compulsory education that impacts the rest of your life.

School isn't compulsory.

ErrolTheDragon · 14/10/2016 14:02

If the point of that last comment was that people who don't like the unfairness in schools admissions is that they can always home ed, again hope that is a joke like 'move or private'

SoupDragon · 14/10/2016 14:07

I still don't see that there should be any place for religion in our education system

And if you want a religious education for your child you should pay for private education.

HeCantBeSerious · 14/10/2016 14:19

If the point of that last comment was that people who don't like the unfairness in schools admissions is that they can always home ed, again hope that is a joke like 'move or private' hmm

Not at all. Just correcting a factual error.

I'm the first one pushing for all religious instruction to be removed from schools.

Riversiderunner · 14/10/2016 14:30

It's practising not practicing, BertrandRussell.

But maybe I only know that because I went to a faith school

nocampinghere · 14/10/2016 16:12

I don't disagree with your points BUT
However you look at it, this local RC school is creaming off the brightest kids, and bringing them in from miles around to continue boosting their exam results and perpetuating the whole cycle. just isn't true. Since when did being a Catholic make you cleverer?

BertrandRussell · 14/10/2016 16:15

"Since when did being a Catholic make you cleverer?"

It doesn't. Please see my post of 09.28

LifeIsGoodish · 14/10/2016 16:31

As a person of a specific faith, I did not want my dc to go to a primary school of a different faith. (I didn't want them to go to a primary school of my faith, either, but that's a different issue.) A 'faith-neutral' school would, by far and away, be my preference for both primary and secondary.

By secondary, however, they had a much clearer sense of who they were in terms of religion and personal belief, and in how we, as a family, were a little different to the majority around them. So, had my only viable choice been s faith school, I would not have been overly worried about that aspect.

Even a faith school has to respect the plurality of beliefs in this country, and the parents' right to withdraw their dc from religious activities.

Your home environment also educates your children. If you feel that a faith school presents only one perspective which you disagree with, it's up to you to present alternatives without denigrating and disrespecting others.

Flip

1 2 3