Secondary Modern provision v Comprehensive schools

[Iamthegreatest1]

I've been reading a bit on the above just to gain a bit more understanding about educational provision in the U.K but would like more clarification on Secondary Moderns in particular.

I gather that Sec. modern provision has been very poor but as of 2016 what is the provision like compared to comprehensives in terms of
A. curriculum (is it still geared towards. Vocational career)
b. Teachers
C. Extra curricular activities
D. Equipment
E. Access to information about university applications etc.

Would you say they have caught up? Will A child who goes to a SM have just as much chance as a child attending a Comp gain entry to uni?

Altrincham College of Arts
Type of school Academy Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 163 English 59% Maths 61% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 55% English Baccalaureate 14% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 55%
Altrincham Grammar School for Boys

Type of school Academy 	Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 172 	English 92% 	Maths 99% 	5+ A<strong>-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 99% 	English Baccalaureate 58% 	A</strong>-C in English and maths GCSEs 99%

Altrincham Grammar School for Girls

Type of school Academy 	Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 174 	English 100% 	Maths 98% 	5+ A<strong>-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 100% 	English Baccalaureate 97% 	A</strong>-C in English and maths GCSEs 100%

Ashton-on-Mersey School

Type of school Academy 	Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 256 	English 69% 	Maths 71% 	5+ A<strong>-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 61% 	English Baccalaureate 24% 	A</strong>-C in English and maths GCSEs 62%

Blessed Thomas Holford Catholic College

Type of school Maintained School 	Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 178 	English 82% 	Maths 66% 	5+ A<strong>-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 59% 	English Baccalaureate 15% 	A</strong>-C in English and maths GCSEs 59%

Flixton Girls Schoo
Type of school Academy Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 169 English 87% Maths 77% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 74% English Baccalaureate 12% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 75%
Sale Grammar School

Type of school Academy 	Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 178 	English 85% 	Maths 95% 	5+ A<strong>-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 94% 	English Baccalaureate 74% 	A</strong>-C in English and maths GCSEs 94%

Sale High School

Type of school Maintained School 	Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 136 	English 64% 	Maths 64% 	5+ A<strong>-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 52% 	English Baccalaureate 13% 	A</strong>-C in English and maths GCSEs 52%

Stretford High School

Type of school Maintained School 	Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 157 	English 57% 	Maths 39% 	5+ A<strong>-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 34% 	English Baccalaureate 4% 	A</strong>-C in English and maths GCSEs 37%

Urmston Grammar Academy

Type of school Academy 	Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 128 	English 92% 	Maths 91% 	5+ A<strong>-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 98% 	English Baccalaureate 61% 	A</strong>-C in English and maths GCSEs 98%

Wellacre Technology Academy
Type of school Academy Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 155 English 74% Maths 56% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 54% English Baccalaureate 15% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 57%
Wellington School
Type of school Academy Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 234 English 83% Maths 74% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 76% English Baccalaureate 47% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 77%

An example of how Traffords secondary schools work for everybody.

Headline exam figures are only part of a school in terms of its success. There is no reference to progress above or number of FSM pupils.

I looked up Kent and the opportunties that I had at a grammar school there and then the exam figures and opportunities on offer at the other secondaries on offer. Not one of the non-grammars offered GCSE music, double languages, Latin, and not all offered triple science instead a range of BTECs with standard GCSEs although their headline figures looked okay. There was much less on offer in terms of extra-curricular activities apart from PE.

I thankfully now live in area which is fully comprehensive, there are no grammar schools around at all but the schools are great serving a wide community and have a full range of options on offer from triple science, multiple languages for the top sets and a wide selection of extra-curricular from music, to PE, science clubs, debating, extra languages, computing etc. and there are also vocational options as well. There are successful comprehensives who successfully cater for everyone, and I have no idea why we aren't making sure that all schools are like this instead of going on about selection and grammar schools. (Reforming Ofsted inspections so the focus isn't just on data but the "offer" that all pupils receive could be a start e.g. looking at subject offers, how pupils are challenged in every subject, what the range of extra-curricular is etc.)

It is only on mumsnet that anyone would worry about a secondary modern school not offering Latin. I cannot think of a single parent whose child went to a secondary modern where I live ever worrying about that. They are more concerned with a variety of subjects being available that their children will enjoy and be successful at. This should, and can, include triple science, 2 languages and a range of other opportunities to broaden out the educational offering.

Great Marlow School is a secondary school with around 30% high achievers. There are other similar secondary schools in Bucks. At these schools you would expect better results than a school with say 10% high achievers. The problem is the lower achievers. The gap between the high achievers and their progress, and the low achievers and their progress can be stark. Lots of initiatives are in place but the lack of achievement starts very young and these children are concentrated in the less affluent areas. Bucks has one of the worst stats for closing the gap and needs a radical rethink on how this can be achieved. However every single "secondary" school is an academy so leadership in the schools is absolutely critical.

I live in Kent and my DD did not take the 11plus (as she wouldn't pass) and is going to what you would call a secondary modern. 10-20% of student go to grammar around here. The school my DD is going to offers triple science and two languages it's not perfect but I'm pleased we got a place. They get good results too not the good results of the grammar schools but over 50% 5 a-c as do many non grammar schools around here.

I am a PhD researcher currently working as a volunteer for an educational charity comparing overall attainment in counties which retained their grammar schools with those that went comprehensive in the 60s and 70s. Hampshire's particularly successful comprehensive system (results are above national average and above neighbouring Kent, which has grammar schools) makes it ideal for a comparative study. Are there any Hampshire parents out there who are willing to share with me some success stories about their kids' comprehensive (or simply why they are pro-comprehensive?). I have many parents talking to me about the value of grammar schools and would love to hear from parents championing the alternative!

I'm in Trafford which has a selective system and I hate it. I would much prefer a comprehensive school system. I have one child at a grammar and one about to start at a "secondary modern" and there's nothing to choose between my kids academically. Will be interesting to compare the two experiences in a few years' time...

NMMB - it's hardly that much of a surprise. Hampshire is a far more affluent county than Kent. Think of the Medway towns and coastal areas of Kent.

My inner city London LA rates highly on all indices of disadvantage, has a fully comp education system, and has results significantly above the national average. And this is reflected across a whole range of the schools: the average isn't skewed by a couple of leafy oasis comps (there aren't any, that I know of, anyway)..

That'll be explained by the London effect of ethnic mix (less white working class) and higher funding most likely Blu.

Hampshire's particularly successful comprehensive system (results are above national average and above neighbouring Kent, which has grammar schools) makes it ideal for a comparative study.
NMMB but as herd points out the differences in affluence of the 2 areas is going to make any comparison ambiguous. If possible you need to compare 2 areas with a similar economic profile.

Thanks for your comments, herd and catslife. I appreciate the point about Kent's demographic - thanks very much for pointing this out. My 'brief' (the work is not for my PhD but for an educational charity) is to compare Bucks and Hants. Since Bucks is generally considered to be an affluent, middle class area (I am aware of the pockets that are not!), I am guessing this is why these two counties were chosen for this study. I would be really interested to make contact with anyone willing to chat to me about their experiences of the Hants comprehensive system. If you would be interested to talk, please pm me with your contact details so we can chat. (I am quite new to Mumsnet, so hope this is the etiquette!). Just so you know, if I do end up using anything discussed, all names of school, people, teachers etc would be changed. I have to anonymise everything, always.

HPFA, some areas already do what you suggest. In my area, several comprehensives have teamed up with a local independent school to offer GCSE Latin as an after-school extra.

Jasper Fantastic to hear that. If we could break out of our endless circling debate I feel we could come up with some really imaginative solutions.

Thanks to the Greenwich Judgement Bucks happily draws in high achieving children from Oxfordshire, Maidenhead etc

www.buckscc.gov.uk/media/3963547/Grammar-school-allocation-by-location-Sept-16-Spring-update.pdf

whilst watching its lower achieving children depart in the opposite direction. It also conveniently has Milton Keynes in a separate authority so the same process happens there.

Bucks CC publicly boasts its superiority of its education system over its neighbouring authorities, never mentioning this as a contributory factor.