Eleven Plus

[MagicalMrsMistoffelees]

Hope someone can help please. Does every child who is put forward for the 11+ have coaching? Is that just the culture these days? Our eldest is in year four and bright enough for a grammar but do we need to organise coaching for him to stand a chance of passing the entrance exams?

For background, I took the 11+ in the late 1980s, passed and went to a grammar school. I didn't have any coaching; nobody did for my school (Tiffin Girls) back then (or did they?!).

My husband went to Manchester Grammar. He said only a few had coaching and they really struggled as they had been taught to pass the entrance exam but were not well equipped to cope with a highly academic environment.

So I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea that children need coaching to pass the 11+. Doesn't that make it an 'unlevel' playing field for children who are bright but haven't been coached to pass an exam and therefore don't get in? And unfair on children who are taught how to pass the entrance exam but struggle later? Isn't it better if everyone just sits the paper 'dry' and those who do well pass? Or am I being very naive?

This is in no way a criticism of parents who have their children coached. I understand that as soon as some children have coaching then it becomes necessary for others to as well. And in all likeliness we will be organising coaching for our son soon!

Just popping back to say thanks again for all the advice and the recommendation to check out elevenplusexams.co.uk

I can't believe how informed I now feel compared to 24 hours ago!

Our journey begins here.

Have a look at the thread here on Tiffins (sic) school. Sorry I don't know how to link. Some posters also say Coombe schools are doing well.

It seems they are all tutored. A friend of DD who got six offers at 11+ last year including LU and G&L wasn't offered a place at Tiffin Girls. In all fairness she was quite a way from the school, so even if she got 97% that wouldn't have guaranteed her a place if others lived closer.

You asked how many got in to Tiffin from local primaries.
Ds1,s year 60 in year. 3 to Tiffin girls . 1 to Tiffin boys
DS 2 , 60 in year. 12 sat the exams 1 to tiffin girls. None to Tiffin boys

Paid tutoring and diy tutoring is the family choice isnt it. If you can then diy tutoring could be the same even more intensive as you live under the same roof as your child it could happen any time not just 1 or 2 hours a week. I am sure as a teacher then you cant find a better tutor to your children as you have the skills too. I dont think you need a paid tutor if its maths and English and you know the format and there were past papers and especially you are a primary school teacher(given she is a bright child too).

I used to work in a super selective grammar. I would say the percentage of pupils coached to get in went up year by year to the point that by the time I left a few years ago, at least 80% were coached. One problem is that the state primaries are not allowed to prepare pupils for the 11+, which widens the gap between the prep school pupils (about 40% of the intake) and the state school. I would also say that, as the amount of coaching went up, so did the number of pupils who struggled with the academic level as your husband described (though Manchester Grammar is not a grammar school!). I also came from the grammar school system and agree that it wasn't like that when I was at school. I was struck by a former pupil of mine who said that she had not been coached to get into the grammar school and her parents did not want to coach her younger sister either, believing that she would get into the most appropriate school for her. The sister was distraught and begged her parents to get her a tutor as all her friends had one and she believed she would be disadvantaged. They gave in and tutored her. Sadly, in the current climate, the sister was probably right.

I don't think paid tutors or necessary or even desirable, unless the parents are really incapable of helping (eg don't have English as a first language).

From my experience, those with paid tutors failed to get places while those whose parents did DIY tutoring got places. As a parent, you know much better where your child has gaps in their knowledge. And how much they are capable of. Plus can use limited time better eg a few minutes here or there when your child is not tired.

Tutors mainly sell snake oil. Worried parents believe them.

I think any child who is at a state primary will need some structured preparation in how to write a story in 30 mins if that is part of the testing..... It isn't something that is tested (unless things have changed loads in last 2 years!). Comprehension and Maths will be far more adequately covered by a bright kid if they have a teacher who keeps giving them extension work.... Prep for that can be just practicing rather than coaching?

There are grammar schools all over the country. I wonder where you are, fidelix? In SW London the competition is really fierce, and I wonder if that's the same across the UK. I'd love to know if, for example, pupils in Devon trying for Colyton Grammar are also tutored in the same way. Just out of curiosity.

Cleo, without outing myself, suffice to say I'm talking about tests where fewer than 1 in 10 get places.

If you have two bright parents who went to selective schools/good unis and probably discuss intelligently and have books at home etc, then the chances are their kids have their genes and the advantages of a middle class upbringing, eg intelligent conversation and books at home. If you have a child who reads widely and is on the top tables, and even more so if one or both parents are teachers, you should be fine.

But don't leave it up to a tutor, as most know very little. (Anyone can and does set up as a tutor.) And they know your child far less well than you do.

So I do agree that some preparation is necessary these days. But parents can do that much better than tutors can.

We are currently on the 11+ conveyor belt and I have twins to get through!

Proceed with caution. Mine are both bright and in top sets at primary. The local comp is SM and poor results/conditions and we are an average family. The boys want to do this - possibly because some of their classmates are also in the race. And it is a race, have no doubts about that

Firstly, this is not an even playing field. As others have said prep school kids have been preparing for this for years, while our state primary actively discourages it.

As I have little patience or aptitude we have spent year 5 with a private tutor. The boys are doing well. However, now i see that every other 10 yr old - from a vast geographical area -seems to taking the 11 plus. Competition is fierce for our local grammar which now has no catchment. For each place I think six children will pass the exam but only one will get a place. I have to find two.

I hate the pressure on us all. Hate fact that if we 'fail' what it could do to a bright 10 year old's confidence. Hate the system, which I am helping to feed. In some ways I regret trying, but if we don't the alternative is dire. Besides, why wouldn't we try when half the school -even those in the lowest sets - are also going for it? And tutored to the max?

There is such a stigma to being tutored privately. I know why, but we are just trying to do our best. So whether you tutor yourself or scrimp to pay privately I agree that preparation is key, otherwise you are sending your child in blind.

It sucks, because fundamentally, if our state school was better we would go and many families do not have a chance for tutoring. But it's that glimmer of hope that drives us.

Good luck middle. It must be stressful with twins. DD's friend at school passed but her friend's twin didn't. Their older sister is at the grammar. Their Mum decided not to split the twins and so neither are going to the grammar. Fortunately the twin who passed is happy about that decision but I wouldn't wish that scenario on anyone.

Thanks Petts it is another worry! We are adament that if one gets in we will do what each child wants. Fortunately they are pretty evenly matched.

Hope my post wasn't too doom and gloom. I think the whole process has just been a bit more stressful than anticipated in terms of realising how competitive this is and trying to manage all our expectations just incase, especially as there is no back up comprehensive as such.

The tutor is brilliant and was recommended. She really knows my boys and I back this up with reading with the boys and doing a few tests etc. Conscious not to overwork them as kids still need to be kids. Not all tutors are a waste of time - ours is a lovely retired teacher and what they are learning still helps them at school so I will never see it as a waste.

Ooh another top tip. The 11+ forums can be helpful but they can also create further levels of anxiety ha ha so I try not to go on too much!

West Kent parent here. My daughters attended the local village school which did no 11plus preparation. For DD1 who took her test in 97 , we just had her do a couple of old test papers at home . For DD2 who took her test in 2004 , things had moved on and she had weekly tutoring sessions for a year as did all of her classmates who were planning to take the 11plus. Now it is not uncommon for children in my area to begin preparation 2 to 3 years ahead. Superselectives are great things but that's a lot of extea stress for a small child.

Tiggy: it can be sure one thing that the children who studied very hard will past the test. If they carry on studying as hard every year in the next 7 years and their parents keep the level of tutor(either paid or diy) then surely they are very competitive later.

Sadly it isnt really the case for many. Private is doing better in terms of Oxbridge entrance because the "might be less able child on the grammar entrance school test" is still being continue to be pushed/coached(the selective or very selective academic private) during the next 7 years after 11+. Its only a START when you got through the entrance door.

Greenleave, a third of state school Oxbridge students are from Grammar schools. Considering there are only 164 Grammar schools, that's not bad.

It's very different in different parts of the country from various people I have known go through the process. In Lincolnshire for example you barely need to do more than sign your name correctly and you will make it into schools such as Spalding Grammar. Compare that with London and Tiffins!

Whatever you do steer clear of the elevenplusforum !! Or at least take a deep breath before approaching it! Quite funny on there at the moment though as I know a number of people decided to wind up the regulars with fake posts about distance to travel to schools, feeder schools and somewhere called Riddens . Gives the obsessed daily posters something to do.

That is just rude to create fake posts. I have found the Elevenplusexams forum useful in the past remain on it in the aim to help others in the future. If people have nothing better to do than fake posts then they are the sad ones rather than those trying to help others.

Yes I agree Pett that it is a bit rude, but also quite amusing to watch! Just had a look and someone I know started the Bursary thread - and I thought they'd given the game away with the line about the Indie having great network for contacts! But alas no, the self obsessed could not resist it appears!

I found plenty of reliable and detailed information for my children's prep on the 'eleven plus' website. Our children very happy now at grammar schools.
Please note that some people here are generalising & referring to 11+ informal discussions taking place on the Forum between parents in some Regions.

The elevenplusexams forum is not-for-profit and set up to enable self-help tutoring/information. I think it was set up with a real spirit of altruism.

My years of 11+ are well behind me but I think it's pretty unfair to troll the site. It's helped a lot of parents who wouldn;t find it easy to access information/paid-for tutoring.

Sorry if I come across as a bit of a buzz-kill. I guess I feel quite protective of it. I'm not connected with it in any way but I did find it very helpful myself.