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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Exclusion from secondary school

60 replies

parentgov1 · 13/05/2016 14:55

Headteachers seem to have to much power to exclude with governors often supporting and Independent Review panels not able to reinstate. Schools and their leadership do not seem to recognise that if you address needs and get education right this may lead to improved behaviour,they focus too much on behaviour policies (often excessively even when not working) and not need/education. Schools don't seem to look at themselves enough to see if they have made mistakes and how provision could be improved instead they blame the child. If they can get it right for the most challenging child and saw it as an opportunity it would benefit the school. Would be interested to hear from other parents with similar concerns.

OP posts:
OddBoots · 13/05/2016 18:16

OP, I think you are going to need to be more specific about what you think schools should change.

Not vague stuff, actual examples of what you think they do wrong and what you think they should do instead and if the measures you suggest are going to cost more then what budgets should be cut or what funding should be given to cover those costs.

NicknameUsed · 13/05/2016 18:34

"you're coming across like a journal and that makes me uneasy."

I'm getting that impression s well. I think the posts are a bit odd and not very specific.

titchy · 13/05/2016 18:37

Maybe OP's re-writing the article, now entitled 'Why is it so difficult to exclude violent pupils?' Wink

gymboywalton · 13/05/2016 18:39

you speak like someone who has never worked in a school and never had to deal with disruptive pupils day in, day out.

parentgov1 · 13/05/2016 18:52

There are cases where this is happening , schooks should be held to account and do things right, parents should know their rights, that's why I Started posting

OP posts:
Myinlawsdidthisthebastards · 13/05/2016 18:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

catslife · 13/05/2016 19:00

"you're coming across like a journal and that makes me uneasy."
Am not sure why you are asking the question OP and have doubts about your conclusions. It seems to me that you have reached a conclusion first and are trying to find evidence to fit that point of view. That isn't great journalism.
Most state schools do go to great lengths to meet the needs of every child OP and (permanent) exclusion really is the last resort. You say in your post if you address needs and get education right this may lead to improved behaviour. They key word here is "may" as often it doesn't improve.
So agree with other posters.

BoneyBackJefferson · 13/05/2016 19:16

parentgov1
"If I was found. To do something illegal in my job I would lose it and wouldn't work again, I don't get given a choice of a small fine which is the situation we are now with schools"

In what way are schools acting illegally?

In fact I wonder if schools are acting illegally by making staff continue to teach those that have attacked them

MrsDallowaySaid · 13/05/2016 19:25

In my job, I have, sadly, been instrumental in the permanent exclusion of several children. It breaks my heart every time. I have done everything the OP suggests and more but i have no choice if children and staff cannot be kept safe. I love my kids, but sometimes permanent exclusion is the only answer. It shouldn't be, but in my local area our alternative provision places are all full.

littledrummergirl · 13/05/2016 20:10

Having my Sen dc come home in tears today I wish they could kick the fuckers out much quicker.

Hth

Lizzylou · 13/05/2016 20:17

I am a teacher in a secondary school and your views of willynilly exclusions are so far from the truth, really couldn't be more different to my (albeit limited) experience.

CrowyMcCrowFace · 13/05/2016 20:23

I suspect not journalist, but parent of dreadfully behaved child about to be excluded.

IME quite a few parent govs get involved in order to have their child's back in these circumstances.

Quicker exclusion & better provision for excluded children would be better for the vast majority who have lessons disrupted by the very small minority who cannot behave.

TheFallenMadonna · 13/05/2016 20:23

Permanent exclusions are rare and becoming rarer. Schools are held to account for exclusions, permanent and fixed term. They are considered as part of the OFSTED judgement.

NicknameUsed · 13/05/2016 20:51

"I suspect not journalist, but parent of dreadfully behaved child about to be excluded"

I am beginning to think that the OP has an axe to grind as well.

meditrina · 13/05/2016 20:55

Thanks, senac32, food for thought.

But my question was aimed more at what the processes should be for exclusion (as OP thinks HTs have too much power - so presumably has some idea of how this needs to change)

And I was under the impression that exclusions rates were falling, ever since the changes which meant schools still had to pay for pupils (even if attending a PRU) and still had their results attributed to them.

BeauGlacons · 14/05/2016 08:00

What an interesting thread. My experience is quite the reverse. Schools will not exclude for behaviours that in any other environment would be regarded as unlawful. At work they would result in dismissal for gross misconduct; in society they would be likely to result in a crimina record. Sometimes the children concerned are already known to the police.

No young person should suffer due to the behaviour of another - physically, mentally or academically. Schools do not sanction unacceptable behaviour enough and I imagine that grades are affected by just continuous low level disruption that impedes thorough teaching and revision of the syllabus. It also has a significant impact on the motivation of the majority and the motivation of the teaching staff.

When my dd attended a state school behaviours that did not result in permanent exclusion were: assault, foul language (frequent at teachers), intimidation, severe disruption, theft, pyromania. After four and a half years (my dd had left the school by then because of the shocking standards) two of the young people were permanently excluded but not before they had been allowed to wreak havoc on the rest of the year group and school community.

The issue really is, in my experience, that Head Teachers have not fought for the rights of the majority to learn or done enough to safeguard the education of the compliant majority. Therefore an excuse culture based on unspeakable low standards of social expectation has sprung up with excuse after excuse being made for the anti-social behaviour of the minority. What of the compliant children from difficult backgrounds who want to work and do work and of whom there are far more than the non-compliant - why can't they be given every opportunity to maximise their potential and they are ones who probably suffer most because they have to watch their step on their home ground to keep themselves under the radar and don't have parents bolstering excellent teaching skills made inadequate due to classroom behaviour with private tutoring. They surely are the ones who need more than any other a safe learning environment where they can thrive and achievement will not be mocked. There is news this week about the failure of white British boys to succeed in education and there is surely a link here.

Ultimately society has to accept that one size doesn't fit all and that different types of schools for young people with different needs are required. Not all schools can fight for places in the league tables but all schools should be focussing on providing every child with the best possible education they are able to access and we as a society need to start making a distinction again between well educated and well qualified.

There needs also, of course, to be far more investment in things like pupil referral units and support and budget for children who cannot peacably cope with mainstream school. One size doesn't fit all; some children would be better elsewhere, somewhere that can meet their needs.

Nothing was done to ensure my dd's inclusion in a small comprehensive where behaviour was running riot and the school was declining and not delivering on promises made at admissions. Nothing was done to ensure her needs were met or that she was happy and thriving. The disruption upset her, the violence upset her, the yelling and shouting and mass detentions upset her. That wasn't inclusive and we voluntarily excluded her and sent her to the independent sector where she thrived and grew in confidence. It wasn't even a particularly academic independent but it had the basics in place and expectations in line with normal, decent behaviour and if a young person there had behaved in the same way as at the old school there would have been no second chances.

NicknameUsed · 14/05/2016 08:46

Clearly the OP has a problem. The vast majority of answers here have confirmed that exclusions are pretty rare these days and only occur for the most serious transgressions.

parentgov1 · 15/05/2016 13:11

This is my first experience of posting, I am not sure I would do it again, the intent was to hopefully share knowledge and experience on the chance since 2014 and the impact this is having , I hope that my initial posts may help some parents , I won't post again as it was not intended to be a debate about numbers , more the practical issues and soenimes injustice if you are involved in exclusion processes and IRPs and FTT.

OP posts:
timelytess · 15/05/2016 13:16

Just as well, OP. I was wondering if we were living on the same planet. 21 years teaching in inner-city comprehensives taught me that exclusions are very rare, unlike behaviour that ought to warrant exclusion, which is disturbingly frequent.

cricketballs · 15/05/2016 14:38

^^ timelytess; also my experience where behaviours displayed 10 years ago would result in an exclusion now its a day in isolation or a detention

BeauGlacons · 15/05/2016 14:55

You see, I am very opposed to strike action. But I think the current status quo is an assault on teachers' terms and conditions because you are prevented from teaching and fulfilling the potential of the majority due to the behaviour of the minority and it impacts on the overall performance of schools. Ed's removal because behaviour was not managed cost the school her results and probable Oxbridge place. They preferred to keep the children who, with their mothers, were holding the SLT and cohort to ransom.

OddBoots · 15/05/2016 15:49

A study from America appeared in my twitter timeline today suggesting that the removal of a disruptive student meant a $100 000 increase in the lifetime earnings of the remaining students in that class. I didn't read the study closely enough to critically evaluate it but it did make me think that there hasn't historically been much focus on the other students in with a disruptive student - I wonder just how influential this factor is in independent school students achieving better exam results and lifetime earnings.

We need to have a system that is as much as possible fair to all students - the disruptive ones probably do have additional needs of one sort or another that mean they need to be taught in a different environment using different methods but it shouldn't take exclusion to get them into that different environment.

corythatwas · 15/05/2016 17:44

OP, you haven't actually shared knowledge, experience or anything else: just made vague statements not backed up by fact. We have a great number of parents on here whose children need behaviour management: some have got the support they need, others haven't. But unlike this thread, they actually contribute to our knowledge by explaining the situation when posting: you haven't told us a thing.

BeauGlacons · 15/05/2016 17:48

I think that's a very pertinent observation oddboots

leccybill · 15/05/2016 17:53

Yes, perhaps best not to post again. This is a mutually supportive site, but it takes both parties to give their views and acknowledge others.
I can't see where you have shared any personal knowledge.
We don't take too kindly to journalists fishing for articles either.

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