3 A Levels or 4?

[grinkle]

My year 11 dd was going to start 4 A Levels in Sept but has just been told that due to funding cuts, and a teacher leaving, one of her choices will not be available. She's been offered one of her other options instead but doesn't really want to do it.

Year 11 parents - how many A Levels will your dcs be doing from Sept? Will 3 be enough, in these post-AS level days? Enough in terms of getting into a good uni to do a competitive subject?

Ricardian you cannot dismiss the whole IB system on the basis of one course at one university. Most UK universities (including Oxbridge) accept the IB taken by some schools in the UK (as well as many EU countries and worldwide) as an equivalent qualification to A levels for all courses including medicine.
How the IB manages breadth vs depth is that at least 2 subjects are studied at Higher level and the others at Standard level. The Standard level subjects are possibly slightly lower than A level standard but the higher ones definitely are not. However university offers can usually allow for this.

Why aren't French medical schools offering enough spaces for all these brilliantly qualified & well-prepared French students? Is the French health system not busy brain-draining middle income countries, too?

llykk, the French system allows for anyone who gets the Bac to enter medical school. I don't know the exact figure, but maybe 80% fail the first year. The difference with the British system is that Universities don't normally take on undergraduates who they don't think will last the course. And because of our more specialisd school system courses are often shorter. Whatever, British medical schools, and indeed other subjects at British Universities, seem popular with EU citizens who will have access to the same loans as British students have.

What a stupid system Needmoresleep. Has anyone given any thought to what a waste of a year that is for the 80% who fail? Also, if they're that brilliantly qualified and well prepared why the heck do they fail? Is medicine in France much more complicated than here?

*Largely to a lower standard (unsurprisingly, unless you believe that A Level students are dossing about and could squeeze a couple more in, no problem). Here's the wording from one medical school.

We require that qualifications are not broad-based and are obtained through assessment of performance in formal, national examinations. For guidance, the following qualifications are not acceptable on their own without, for example, A-levels. These include: Bulgarian Diploma; French Baccalaureate (including OIB); German Abitur; Greek (including Cypriot) Apolytirion; Italian Esame Di Stato; Lithuanian Brandos Atestats; Netherlands "Voorbereidend Wetenschappelijk Onderwijs" (VWO) Diploma; Polish Matura; Portugese Diploma de Ensino Secundario; Romanian Baccalaureate; Spanish Título de Graduado en Educación Secundaria Obligatoria (ESO) and Título de Bachiller; Swedish Slutbetyg från Gymnasieskolan (School Leaving Certificate).*

I think this is a bit misleading, as (a) the qualifications listed above are very different and not comparable to each other and (b) you have quoted one medical school while other subjects/universities do accept these qualifications.

For example, Dutch VWO teaches comparable maths and physics material to A level maths and physics; students don't study that many subjects at VWO and VWO is generally comparable with A level. In particular Dutch VWO in exact sciences (physical sciences) is accepted by UK universities as being comparable to A levels. Similarly the Greek/Cypriot Apolytirion is accepted in physical sciences - there are quite a few Greek students coming to study in the UK at the moment. On the other hand the list above includes qualifications which range over a wider group of subjects and which are hence not comparable to A level.

BTW it is not true that all UK medical schools refuse these qualifications either. I know that Cambridge has in recent years made offers for medicine to students with Dutch and other qualifications. They do however tend to ask for very high grades (arguably above the grades required for A level students).

Goodbye, I am not an expert but I think the approach of allowing all qualified candidates in, then selecting via the first year exams, is not uncommon in Europe. In contrast British Universities select before entry and 60% of medical school applicants won't get places.

I guess it depends where you come from. Not selecting initially means that you don't suffer selection bias. However there is a real stampede of French students wanting to study in the UK, not just medicine but subjects like economics and engineering. I dont really know why, as most French will insist that their education is superior to ours. We live in central London so have known a number of London based French, but I cannot think of a single student, bar one medic who did not get a place in the UK, who has returned to France for tertiary education.

Why wouldn't one of the 60% of UK students who fail to get into a UK medical school, then apply to a French medical school?

Ricardian you cannot dismiss the whole IB system on the basis of one course at one university. Most UK universities (including Oxbridge) accept the IB taken by some schools in the UK

catslife: that list doesn't include the IB, and the IB is accepted by the institution I cited. You appear to be confusing the IB, a qualification developed by international schools within the UN and now spreading more widely, with national baccalaureates. They have in common, roughly, the word "baccalaureate".

To take the example of the French Baccalaureate, this is a qualification that is not sutable for admission to a significant number of French universities, never mind anywhere outside France. The whole business of the CPGE has arisen precisely for this reason.

However there is a real stampede of French students wanting to study in the UK, not just medicine but subjects like economics and engineering.

English qualification, plus not having to do the CPGE (vide supra). The French education system, like so many other French things, is held in higher esteem by ex-pats besotted by being able to buy decent croissants than it is by the French themselves.

Also, if they're that brilliantly qualified and well prepared why the heck do they fail? Is medicine in France much more complicated than here?

Quite.

No Ricardian in my original post I was referring to the internationally recognised IB all along which is indeed studied in lots of countries around the world. My reference to plural qualifications is because this is offered through more than one UK exam board e.g. CIE, Edexcel. I was not referring to local qualifications in other EU countries. The other qualification that is broader based is Scottish Highers but this must be a slightly lower standard as it only requires one further year of post 16 study.
Due to uncertainty about the new A levels many UK schools are switching away from A levels towards the IB. There are also other qualifications such as international A levels (A level equivalent to iGCSE) which isn't available to state school pupils in the UK and the Cambridge pre-U.

The university system is the same in Italy. Thousands enrol at the start - and it's a pyramid structure whereby people fall off each year. There is not a strict 3-year time span, people can take years to do a degree as you can keep retaking. Most young people live at home and attend their nearest university, so it is not as punitive as university here. In fact there was a case reported this week where a 28-year-old son successfully sued his father for continued support at university. The father said he'd had enough and the son should get a job. But the son won!

Have been following this thread with interest as we are in the same position as OP, with DS keen to drop one of his 4 subjects.

May I ask, have you actually made a decision yet OP?

I'm not sure why four A2s under the new more challenging system would now be seen as critical when they weren't under the old regime? .

What is your DS intending to apply for Indrid? Is the fourth subject especially useful ? Is he taking an AS in it or is it already decoupled with no Y12 exam and therefore nothing 'to show' for his work ?

Indrid, I think dd is likely to stick with 3 (as there is really nothing else she wants to do) and I shall push her to look into doing an EPQ.

But I'd rather she did 3 subjects she enjoyed and was good at than a totally random fourth subject she didn't really want to do and had no great ability in. As long as it's not going to actively harm her chances, which most on this thread seem to agree will not be the case, then that's fine.

If she was doing sciences, my answer might be different, but I think to do four humanity subjects well is too hard for most.

Plenty mix sciences and arts grinkle.

Due to uncertainty about the new A levels many UK schools are switching away from A levels towards the IB.

2015: 472670 Home and EU students accepted university places through UCAS. Of those, 5640, 1.2%, were IB students. Suppose it doubled (and I don't believe for a second that it will) it would reach the heady heights of 2.4%. A lot of those will be, unsurprisingly, students from international schools, so its impact on UK university admission by UK students is very low. The has been a drop both in the number of schools and the numbers taking the IB in the UK since the early part of this decade, and the whole debate feels like a lost age.

... international A levels...Pre-U...

And? UK A Levels are well regarded internationally and, for example, the UK A Level is one of the few qualifications from outside the US which you can take as AP into US Universities. The Pre-U has little traction outside its originators: 4232 were sat in 2014, so that's, what, 1000 students? 0.25% of the UK undergraduate cohort (even assuming they were all applying to UK universities)? 1377 international A Levels were taken in the UK in 2014, so if they were being used as the sole qualification (I suspect that isn't the case) that would be less than 500 students. 0.1% of the cohort? Exciting stuff. A reasonably sized university with 10 000 home/EU undergraduates might have a couple of hundred students with either he IB or the Pre-U.

The idea that admission tutors in British universities come over all hormonal in the face of these minority qualifications and immediately reach for the "Accept" stamp, and the related idea that students who have these qualifications sweep all before them on arrival in a way that they wouldn't have done with standard A Levels, is a charming belief of people who are paying a lot of money to have their children at schools which offer them. But it has little basis in evidence, in large part because the numbers are so low: the typical programme will have less than 5 people with the IB, so the numbers will be suppressed in most HESA reports even if they were broken out separately, which they aren't.

These are perfectly respectable qualifications from good quality validating bodies, taught by good schools and accepted perfectly happily by universities. So are A Levels. The claim that they make the students ineffably better is mostly magically thinking.

Thanks grinkle, that's interesting. In fact we are a year ahead of you as DS started 4 last September, all languages. I think that 4 is still a hangover from the previous regime of start 4 and drop one after a year, because you would have the AS. I feel a bit twitchy about him dropping down to three, but feel it is probably better to get three better grades rather than risk four slightly less good ones.

FWIW, and as it has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread, my DS is at Eton, and they seem to be relaxed about only doing three subjects, and DS assures me that most of his friends will be dropping a subject as well (although this has yet to be confirmed by the school!). In terms of their advice re university entry it pretty much boils down to choose a subject you love and work hard at it, if you can impress the person who interviews you with your knowledge and enthusiasm for the subject then you will increase your chance of an offer. No froth, no arcane manoeuvrings and no EPQs, which I hadn't even heard of before.

Modern linguists are in short supply Indrid so I'd worry even less, despite there being higher expectations because of his school.

In terms of their advice re university entry it pretty much boils down to choose a subject you love and work hard at it, if you can impress the person who interviews you with your knowledge and enthusiasm for the subject then you will increase your chance of an offer.

The vast majority of university courses don't interview.

But if 30% of Eton boys get an offer from Oxford or Cambridge then it's a fair bet that a lot more than that try hayita so it's fair that they gear their advice to the majority who intend to apply. Do you know what the application: offer ratio is Indrid? Just curious.

goodbye couple of cycles back but the Eton Cambridge application success rate was around 50%. Slightly lower for Oxford although a lot more applied there a lack of aspiration I find quite surprising

Both Cambridge and Oxford publish application and offers / acceptances by individual school.

The Cambridge ones are here www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/statistics - see the pdfs on the right of the page for apply centre - what most of the rest of us would call a "school"

Oxford one's were not quite so easily found. Someone posted a link to them a while back however can't find it at the moment.

The vast majority of university courses don't interview.

It is still sound advice, even if it is not applicable in 100% of cases.

goodbye yes, I had been wondering that too, I'm glad that someone much better informed than me has been able to answer the question .

If also bet my bottom dollar that apart from Oxbridge, Eton boys will be interviewed at Imperial etc. then there will be the medics.

And it usually has a few trying for drama school.

Imperial don't interview in many subjects. In fact, generally STEM subjects don't interview that much. For maths, apart from Oxford and Cambridge, almost all other places don't interview. Ditto for physics, chemistry. Popular engineering courses interview but still not that many courses. I thought that there wasn't much interviewing done for MFL these days either, as it is so under-subscribed.