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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

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Original poster

School not allowing scribe to student who is entitled?

92 replies

CanvasAwning · 03/03/2016 06:27

I believe that if a student is entitled to a scribe then school are legally bound to offer one. I am thinking that they could use "normal way of working" as a reason for refusal. But if they haven't offered a scribe then how could it be normal way of working and if student has only just qualified for a scribe then it couldn't be normal way of working either.

What can be done if the school is refusing to offer a scribe to student who is entitled to one? Year 11.

OP posts:

LIZS · 04/03/2016 08:29

You need to be careful as using spellcheck etc can have a knock on effect on the potential mark in some subjects which include SpAG. He needs to work out which works best for him, whether it be a scribe, laptop, extra time, and stick to it to establish his normal mode of working.

MyVisionsComeFromSoup · 04/03/2016 08:59

DD2 chose to write her English GCSE exam with her arm in a sling in order to get the SPAG marks, but decided that 6 marks available for SPAG in Geography weren't worth it, so used the scribe for that subject.

What she also did (not necessarily relevant to the OPs DS, but potentially to anyone else in a similar situation to DD) was to write unusual/complicated spellings/Maths formulae on a whiteboard so that the scribe could copy them. Her experience was that the TAs who scribed for her were more used to working with lower ability students, and weren't necessarily up on the level of work being covered by higher sets. One in particular said that if she'd known DD would need 9 sides of A4, she might not have agreed to do it, as her hand hurt afterwards .

But yes, if you're not used to dictating, it's hard to perform well in exam conditions.

SocksRock · 04/03/2016 09:09

I have been a scribe and unless the student is very used to it, it is really hard for them. I have scribed for one lad who has always had a scribe and one who had broken both wrists. The difference was very noticeable. The lad with broken wrists chose to word process some of his other exams, but I had to scribe his maths exam as it needed a ruler and compass which can't be done on a laptop.

Would the school consider some intensive laptop support to make sure he is ready?

Foxyloxy1plus1 · 04/03/2016 21:46

My experience has been that the student needs to have been using a scribe since entering secondary school, if not before, in order to be completely familiar with the constraints it presents and also to be very used to the scribe him/herself.

As the OP says that the assessment and access arrangement is new, I'm wondering why the school has not deemed it necessary to apply for arrangements earlier. Is it because the student has always had an arrangement to use a laptop? I'm surprised about the use of spell check, because we always, always had to have them switched off and it was always an either/or for technology or scribe.

Original poster

CanvasAwning · 05/03/2016 07:34

He wouldn't have qualified for a scribe early on in school. It is only as he has got older but the difficulties remained the same that he has scored low enough to qualify. He is fine scribing with me at home - he knows what to do. I don't think that is the issue or at least it is the lesser of two evils. I think it's fairly regular practise to have students qualifying and being offered scribes at various stages throughout school. This is definitely last minute and can become normal way of working for future A Levels. I thought that school is legally required to offer a scribe if student qualifies, no matter when they qualify. How can it be normal way of working if you haven't been offered it?

OP posts:

sashh · 05/03/2016 08:04

Definitely not into abusing the system... just want him to be able to demonstrate ability. Would actually prefer him to be self sufficient and type but it's not working out.

Has he got the right software? You can dictate to a laptop and have it read back to you if the software is loaded.

Original poster

CanvasAwning · 05/03/2016 08:10

Have tried that but there was too much gibberish and he has great difficulty proof reading. We could reinvestigate this option though as he was a bit younger when we last tried it.

OP posts:

LadyPenelope68 · 05/03/2016 08:51

If they are already offering him assistance in the way of a laptop, then they don't "legally" have to offer him the use of a scribe as well. It also has to be seen to be the "norm" in lessons, not just in exams. Using you as a scribe at home is very, very different to using one at school when it's someone they aren't used to, can be someone different all the time, not always someone available in lessons etc, etc. You say he has difficulty proof reading, but the scribe won't be able to read back to him what they've written, he'll have to read and correct it.

LadyPenelope68 · 05/03/2016 08:53

I may be incorrect here but I am almost certain that voice recognition software isn't allowed for GCSE's and A levels. Even if it is, if it's not being used in lessons regularly, it won't be seen as a normal way of working so would be disallowed on those grounds.

rosebiggs · 05/03/2016 09:22

Speech recognition technology is allowed, but yes it has to be the pupil's usual way of working.

Original poster

CanvasAwning · 05/03/2016 09:23

Voice recognition could be used for writing essays at home - not sure for exams but likely to be an option for someone who was visually impaired for example.

Anyone can use a laptop for exams but you need to meet certain requirements for a scribe. You can't just give a laptop to someone who qualifies for other accommodations and say this is the only assistance you are getting. The school will have legal obligations.

Most students qualifying for scribes do not have a scribe with them in all lessons - there are not enough TAs for this. But they will definitely have them for coursework, some tests and exams.

There wouldn't be a problem reading back scribed work but there is a problem with the sheer number of mistakes made on the laptop.

OP posts:

rosebiggs · 05/03/2016 09:32

It's all on jcq - look there. But the final decision on access arrangements rests with the school. They have to meet JCQ criteria as they may be inspected.
Who has assessed him and found that he qualifies for a scribe?
Was this a private assessment?

Ememem84 · 05/03/2016 09:35

I was allowed to use a scribe for an exam I sat about 18 months ago (professional exams) when I broke my writing hand. I was allocated the scribe for a practice exam to see how I got on but it was awful. I felt I had no "thinking time" in the exam and it was just bizarre having to tell my answers to someone else.

I ended up deferring my exam to the next session once my hand had healed and just sat two the next time.

I appreciate that for school exams your ds may not be able to do this but maybe get him to practice answering questions with you scribing for him. So he knows what toe xpext.

Ememem84 · 05/03/2016 09:36

*to expect

LadyPenelope68 · 05/03/2016 09:47

Yes I am fully aware that someone with visual impairment would have access to speech recognition, as that would most definitely be the normal way of working.

As for scribes in lessons some pupils do have this for longer pieces of work and IS the normal way of working in class. My son has this in class regularly (dyspraxia, dyscalcula and dyslexia) and I have students in my classes who do (I'm a teacher).

LadyPenelope68 · 05/03/2016 09:48

Ememem84 it is difficult, lots of students say they prefer not to use a scribe for the very reasons you describe.

Original poster

CanvasAwning · 05/03/2016 10:04

There will definitely be more students who qualify for a scribe than there will be available TAs in regular lessons. Students with statements will get TAs for a specified number of hours per week but the majority of students who qualify for a scribe won't have statements and won't have a full time TA scribing for them in class. There might be one TA in a class where there are several students who qualify for a scribe so they will have to prioritise where they give their support. When several TAs are needed for controlled assessments or coursework then they will be pulled from regular classrooms and put where they are needed.

OP posts:

DramaQueenofHighCs · 05/03/2016 10:05

It may be that your DS's use of the laptop is low but good enough that they feel the use of a scribe won't make much difference to his grade. You'd be surprised how, under exam conditions, students who have used scribes for their mocks and been fine suddenly forget to dictate full stops, commas, capital letters etc. (You can scribe without the student spelling out words, they just miss out on the spelling marks.)
Also as previous posters have said, dictating to you at home is VERY different from dictating to a potential stranger in a real exam. Also, again if his laptop skills/subject are good enough that the school think the lost SPAG marks will make no difference to his grade then they may also be thinking of space and finance as a factor. Harsh as it seems, they just may feel it's not worth having to potentially pay wages to a scribe (and possibly spend time training a staff member or relative to scribe for exams as they are in short supply) and having to find yet another seperate room as students who are scribed for have to have either a room to themselves or only 2 or three other (very well spaced out) students, also needing scribes, in the room with them because of the potential to hear other candidates answers.
I'm not saying the schoo are in the right, I don't know your exact circumstances, and you will need to talk to them because if he IS fully entitled to a scribe you are fully entitled to demand he has one, but I wouldn't do that untill you have talked with them about the exact reasons why.
Getting scribes for exams is a logistical nightmare and, while schools will always do the best for their students, in an either/or situation they will most likely choose a laptop. (And some students don't use their scribes which is frustrating too!)

sashh · 05/03/2016 10:08

We could reinvestigate this option though as he was a bit younger when we last tried it.

Some software doesn't pick up a woman's voice as well as a man's, so I imagine a child's voice might not be picked up easily.

LadyPenelope68 · 05/03/2016 10:14

Canvas I am fully aware of how support in classes work as I'm a teacher, I don't need you to explain that to me.

Original poster

CanvasAwning · 05/03/2016 10:18

I agree Drama. There is also the concern that they don't want the commitment of an A Level student who is entitled to a scribe. There is clear evidence that a scribe will actually make a massive difference to his grades - the difference between an B and C or even A and C.

"because if he IS fully entitled to a scribe you are fully entitled to demand he has one"

This is what I really need to know - is this definitely correct?

OP posts:

OddBoots · 05/03/2016 10:28

"There is clear evidence that a scribe will actually make a massive difference to his grades - the difference between an B and C or even A and C."

What format does this evidence take? Is it independent and objective? This is the evidence you need to present to the school.

Original poster

CanvasAwning · 05/03/2016 10:31

They have been given independent and objective evidence...

OP posts:

LadyPenelope68 · 05/03/2016 11:47

Who has given the independent and objective evidence?

rosebiggs · 05/03/2016 12:20

So it's a private assessment? Schools are not required to accept recommendations from a private report if they don't agree with them. The assessor should have told you that.

In what way has the assessor decided that he has 'qualified' for a scribe? Can you explain more?

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