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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Has this board always been dominated by questions about private schools?

326 replies

minifingerz · 19/02/2016 17:56

... and the Education board?

I'm sure I remember this board being relevant to most parents even as recently as last year.

Wouldn't it make sense to have a separate board for private education, rather than having these ones silted up with queries about fee paying schools, given that it's of no relevance to 93% of UK parents?

OP posts:
TeenAndTween · 23/02/2016 12:15

Some stats in case anyone is interested:

January 2012 there were 3,268 state-funded mainstream secondary schools in England. (UK Government site)

There are 164 Grammar Schools remaining in England. (11 + site)

To add to the mix, there are 2,415 independent schools: 1,625 primary and 790 secondary. These educate about 7 per cent of the school age population. (The Independent)

DSClarke · 23/02/2016 12:29

I also just find it interesting and entertaining to read about other kinds of schools. There is no way my DCs will be going to Eton/ Harrow/ Winchester or any other boarding school, but it's great to get an insight into these other worlds. Like flicking through Tatler at the dentist.

Mumsnet is not just about things that we find useful, it's about enjoying ourselves, and also realising that lots of other people have vastly different opinions to ourselves. Surely that is a good thing?

DSClarke · 23/02/2016 12:31

Oh, and the eleven plus site is pretty short on laughs as well...

Lurkedforever1 · 23/02/2016 12:38

mum I stand by the statement the state system is far more unfair than the availability of private education. There is a bigger gap between the best and worst state schools than there is between the best state schools and the average independent school. And that's hugely unfair because the state system is meant to be equal.

Why should someone like mini only have an unsatisfactory school when other people have great ones?
And don't forget the inequality of state selection. The parent paying for Eton isn't taking a place from a deprived or unsupported child. On the other hand every parent that tutors their child for state selection is potentially depriving an equally or slightly brighter child from a less privileged home from a place.

(That's not a criticism btw, I understand why any parent would. But yet another example of the unfairness of state education).

SAHDthatsall · 23/02/2016 12:52

I agree wit Lurked 100%

Too many boards anyway, I would consider losing the 'Education' one which has too many crossovers.

The elevenplusforum is funny. People so keen to get their child into a Grammar school regardless of suitability, distance to travel etc etc. Amusing place. I must train my child to go to grammer [sic] school because they must do that and then become doctors so I can be proud of them and everyone can see what I have done.

MumTryingHerBest · 23/02/2016 13:02

Lurkedforever1 Tue 23-Feb-16 12:38:20 There is a bigger gap between the best and worst state schools than there is between the best state schools and the average independent school.

Is this take from an article or research document? Link much appreciated if so.

I would be quite interested in knowing what information source or measurement criteria was used to make the comparisons between worst state and average indie? What exactly is the definition of "an average indie"?

Lurkedforever1 · 23/02/2016 13:14

mum you clearly have very little knowledge of the state system outside your own little bubble of good options. How many failing sink schools do you know very well?

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 23/02/2016 13:24

Mum
I remember seeing a lot of articles about this a year or so ago
schoolsweek.co.uk/results-show-knowsley-is-worst-performing-area-for-gcses/

It doesn't seem to have improved much
www.theguardian.com/education/2016/feb/23/underperforming-schools-in-liverpool-and-manchester-putting-northern-powerhouse-plans-at-risk

MumTryingHerBest · 23/02/2016 13:29

Lurkedforever1 Tue 23-Feb-16 12:38:20 And don't forget the inequality of state selection. The parent paying for Eton isn't taking a place from a deprived or unsupported child.

Maybe not, however, there does seem to be plenty of parents with Habs/MT etc. hopefuls who are (at least in my area).

Lurkedforever1 On the other hand every parent that tutors their child for state selection is potentially depriving an equally or slightly brighter child from a less privileged home from a place.

A fair number of these parents will have DCs in preps. to prepare them for the 11 plus. A fair number of those parents will also end up with offers to both private selectives and state selectives. After offers day there are a lot of posts from parents asking parents with offers to private schools to reject their state school offers if they are unlikely to use them so the waiting lists can start moving.

SAHDthatsall The elevenplusforum is funny. People so keen to get their child into a Grammar school regardless of suitability, distance to travel etc etc. Amusing place.

I completely agree, similar comments are made about the selective privates too. As soon as results are relased there are a fair number of comments along the lines of "my DC scored X is there any school DC can get into with that score" or "DC has been offered a place at X school, what is the school like". This is normally followed by comments along the lines of "is your DC able to actually get to that school" or "have you actually visited the school".

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 23/02/2016 13:31

The Sutton Trust has compared Oxbridge accross state and private some state schools are in line with private schools for Oxbridge admissions
www.suttontrust.com/newsarchive/race-top/

A fair number of state schools in the top 100 for A level
www.telegraph.co.uk/education/leaguetables/12109997/Top-100-secondary-schools-by-A-level-results-2015.html

MumTryingHerBest · 23/02/2016 13:32

*Lurkedforever1 Tue 23-Feb-16 13:14:35 mum you clearly have very little knowledge of the state system outside your own little bubble of good options. How many failing sink schools do you know very well?"

Really?

I have close family on the Isle of Wight. Take a look at how good the schools are there.

MumTryingHerBest · 23/02/2016 13:40

Lurkedforever1 take a look at the link ChazsBrilliantAttitude has posted. I have a niece and nephew who live in Knowsley too (I was there at Christmas, my kids love the Safari Park as the monkeys climb all over your car).

Dapplegrey1 · 23/02/2016 16:20

Mumtrying

If you are questioning the selection criteria of the various schools mentioned on that thread, what fair selection criteria would you suggest a school uses in the event of oversubscription, wealth perhaps which is what all indies/privates use?

Independent schools don't use wealth in the event of oversubscription, they use an entrance exam - some schools have two, an aptitude test and interview and then common entrance. The fees are the same for everyone except in the case of bursaries and scholarships - places aren't offered to whoever can pay the most.

Dapplegrey1 · 23/02/2016 16:22

Sorry, the first sentence starting "if you are questioning......." should have been in inverted commas, indicating I had quoted Mumtryingherbest.

MumTryingHerBest · 23/02/2016 16:22

Dapplegrey1 Tue 23-Feb-16 16:20:51 - Mumtrying If you are questioning the selection criteria of the various schools mentioned on that thread, what fair selection criteria would you suggest a school uses in the event of oversubscription, wealth perhaps which is what all indies/privates use?

Which of my posts did you read that suggested I was questioning the selection criteria?

MumTryingHerBest · 23/02/2016 16:24

Dapplegrey1 Tue 23-Feb-16 16:20:51 Mumtrying Independent schools don't use wealth in the event of oversubscription, they use an entrance exam

I was not aware that all indies/privates had entrance tests.

MumTryingHerBest · 23/02/2016 16:27

Dapplegrey1 Tue 23-Feb-16 16:20:51 Mumtrying The fees are the same for everyone

Really, so every indie/private uses the same fee structure?

AnotherNewt · 23/02/2016 16:43

I think she meant that the fees are the same for all pupils as they go through the school. Not that they sell them to the highest bidder.

Clavinova · 23/02/2016 16:45

MumTryingHerBest - Clavinova - I think you've linked to the wrong thread, from what I can see pretty much every type of school is mentioned on that thread. Where is the irony?

The irony is that the very short, current thread I linked to has an almost perfect microcosm of every open door/back door selection possible in the state system - grammar, super selective grammar, semi-selective which allocates 15-20% of places to out of county children but only guarantees 10% of places for local children even though there is a sink school in the same postcode), faith, music scholarships and banding tests at weekends (I would like to see banding tests arranged during the junior school day as per the grammar school tests in Kent)- and yet the accusation is that those looking to send their dc to ordinary state schools would be frightened off by the private school threads. It is also ironic that both you andmini posted on that thread and are likely to send your dc to better schools than some of your neighbours because you can afford 11+ tuition or music lessons.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 23/02/2016 17:18

OK, so state school allocations are a week away which means I will see the Education boards being dominated by posts about state schools, right?

Quite possibly, yes.

But if not, so what? People can bring up any sub topic on education that they want. If you don't like the independent school topics, don't read them. Go start a discussion that you are interested in. It's not the task of other posters to entertain you with discussions you deem suitable. We create the discussions ourselves. Go create something yourself rather than whining about people who are.

Lurkedforever1 · 23/02/2016 17:37

mum you're aware many so called comprehensives take most of their pupils on catchment? What kind of catchment do you think sink hole high has? Low income and social housing or do you think it will be crammed with comfortably off home owners? What about brilliant leafy high? Which socio economic group do you think forms most of that catchment?

Iirc it was the guardians list of schools that had states in the top 20 or so places. Explain to me how providing one of those for one child for free and offering one of the worst schools to another is a lesser injustice than another childs parents paying for private.

minifingerz · 23/02/2016 17:44

"mum you clearly have very little knowledge of the state system outside your own little bubble of good options. How many failing sink schools do you know very well?"

?

And your point is?

The highest percentage of children in private schools in the UK is in London, where there is also the highest percentage of OFSTED 'outstanding' state schools.

The bottom line is this: even in an outstanding state school, the 'spend' per head is about half that spent on children in the private sector.

As for selection in non-religious, supposedly non-selective state schools - this is wheeled out over and over again as being equally discriminatory against disadvantaged children as the private sector, which selects on the basis of parental income, ability, or both. My answer to that is 'utter bollocks'. The school my dc's go to is massively oversubscribed and has many middle-class and high achieving children. But it also has large numbers of children from the MOST disadvantaged backgrounds, including very low achieving children. There is absolutely NO private school in the UK which accepts poor, low achieving children. They are entirely excluded from the system (except in the rare case of SN where a poor and low achieving child has their fees paid for by the LA).

In any case, unfairness and discrimination in one sector, doesn't justify even more unfairness and worse discrimination in another, and mine is just one of many voices calling out for a reform of the admissions process to reduce the unfairness caused by selection by faith, postcode and the 11+

"It is also ironic that both you andmini posted on that thread and are likely to send your dc to better schools than some of your neighbours because you can afford 11+ tuition or music lessons."

11+ tuition is a huge industry where I live, because of the existence of a number of super selectives in a neighbouring borough. Prep schools also abound, and these super-selectives take in disproportionate numbers of children who've been privately educated prior to sitting the 11+. You won't find me defending this as fair and equitable.

As regards selecting on the basis of music - yes there are a number of schools who do this and both of mine (hopefully, just waiting to find out about number 2) have gained a place through this system of partial selection. It's probably not worth pointing this out because it tends to be ignored as it doesn't fit the argument, but many children apply for and gain music places at my dc's school without having had ANY prior formal instrumental teaching. Of course children who are talented on an instrument have a good chance of gaining a place, and it's very wrong that many are excluded from this type of learning by a lack provision in state primaries. Perhaps if the private sector wasn't hoovering up the vast majority of children who are very accomplished on an instrument, state schools would have more of a rationale, and more parental support for improving music provision, but at the moment it's very low down on their list of priorities.

OP posts:
minifingerz · 23/02/2016 18:01

"Explain to me how providing one of those for one child for free and offering one of the worst schools to another is a lesser injustice than another childs parents paying for private."

You really want to make this personal - make it about parents being unfair and wrong headed. People who feel the way I do don't blame parents for wanting a good school for their children, they blame people who try to justify the system as morally tolerable, and for ignoring the truth, which is that having a system of education where the best off, the best supported, and the highest achieving have twice as much spent on their schooling, and are educated in a state of 'social apartheid', before going on in disproportionate numbers to take up positions of influence in politics and business.

It stinks and it's wrong. Use the system if you must, but don't defend it. It's morally indefensible to perpetuate a system which is so unfair to children.

OP posts:
NewLife4Me · 23/02/2016 18:01

mini

There are children at dd school who passed the auditions at the required level who had never had formal teaching, some just helped by parents.
Now obviously they are a minority and most don't fall into this category, but it is possible.
The school is open to all
What matters is talent not background or ability to pay - around 90% of students receive up to full funding through the Department for Education (DfE). This is made possible by the Government's Music & Dance Scheme, designed to enable young, talented musicians and dancers to receive full time education and training at a specialist school irrespective of parents' financial means.
There are several schools which attract the same funding, approx 8 iirc

Lurkedforever1 · 23/02/2016 18:55

mini and do you feel the same about every parent that takes advantage of the best state schools?

On a personal note, if my selection by postcode offering hadn't been so dire I wouldn't have even considered private. And if dd had ended up at a dire school, it wouldn't be the tiny minority of private parents or even the much larger majority of parents who have paid their way into catchment for good state schools that I'd be resentful of. It would be the same as it is now- anger at the inequality of state provision which unlike private should be equal.