Has this board always been dominated by questions about private schools?

[minifingerz]

... and the Education board?

I'm sure I remember this board being relevant to most parents even as recently as last year.

Wouldn't it make sense to have a separate board for private education, rather than having these ones silted up with queries about fee paying schools, given that it's of no relevance to 93% of UK parents?

2016IsANewYearforMe Wed 24-Feb-16 13:43:11 - Mum

1. Teachers are right now fighting against a more ambitious curriculum.

Is that what your neighbours told you? Seems a bit odd that their DCs are in a state school because they can't afford indie/private yet they are actively trying to keep the academic standards down in that school. Did they give you any logical reason why they are doing that?

Merciful I wasn't having a go at teachers. I think they all have a damn difficult job to do, under very stressful circumstances and the shifting sands of many NC changes. I apologise and I'm sorry you feel you wish you hadn't gone into teaching.

I do think your own experience of school has some bearing on your outlook on education.

And I was asking a question (hence the use of a question mark) about consequences in secondary schools today.

In charley's defence the question has to be: the private sector is managing this, why can't the state sector?

Mum they aren't, this is what they face.

2016IsANewYearforMe Wed 24-Feb-16 14:39:41 Mum they aren't, this is what they face.

Sorry I must have misundertood your post. You listed teachers amongst your neighbours and then stated:

1. Teachers are right now fighting against a more ambitious curriculum.

In charley's defence the question has to be: the private sector is managing this, why can't the state sector?

Isn't it clear that the state sector and serves a social responsibility that the private sector doesn't have to serve?

Sorry Railworker - I know you weren't really attacking teachers. I should stay off the education board on MN really - it just makes me bitter and ranty! I have not one shred of hope that any government in my lifetime will do anything to improve the current system.

2016 are you serious?! You can't see why private schools manage to do things and instill attitudes that state schools don't?

mum you are being "cute." We all know that not every teacher thinks the same, but we also know that groups such unions and professional bodies distill a plurality of opinions into one point of view to try to mould the debate and bring pressure on the state to behave in ways that they believe will suit the majority of their members. Also what is good for me as a parent may not be quite so good for me as an employee.

What's your point merciful?

2016IsANewYearforMe Wed 24-Feb-16 14:54:36 What's your point merciful?

I think her point was clearly stated:

You can't see why private schools manage to do things and instill attitudes that state schools don't

If we all agree it is different the first question is: is the situation in private schools preferable? If yes, then the next question is: how do we achieve this in state schools?

My point is that there are many differences between private schools and state schools. The home circumstances of many state school pupils will mean that it is hard for them to have the aspirations which come so unthinkingly and naturally to those with wealth and security.

In addition, private schools are not required to bend to the whims of government education policy, have connections and facilities that state schools can only dream of, are staffed by people with the same unthinking assumptions about what it's possible to achieve, and often have few problems of behaviour or lack of parental support to consider. They can select their pupils based on ability and they can chuck them out if they turn out not to fit expectations. That's just off the top of my head.

Cross posts. The answer is: we can't. Ever.

is the situation in private schools preferable? If yes, then the next question is: how do we achieve this in state schools?

First of all we would need to invest billions more in state education.

I meant that sarcastically of course - merciful is right, we can't. Ever.

Phew. I thought for a moment that everyone would pile in and say 'How ridiculously defeatist! Of course we can make state comps like Eton! '

So, you are all in agreement that selective private schools are better than your average comprehensive school?

In fact I'm about to start a long-term supply contract, teaching in a semi-rural northern comp, taking over from a teacher who is on long-term sick leave (for stress, I expect). I shall go and instill some pride, stiff upper lip and standards in these oiks, I tell you .

merciful

"So, you are all in agreement that selective private schools are better than your average comprehensive school?"

Well of course. Selective state schools are also better than average comprehensives. And comprehensives in affluent areas are also better than average comprehensives.

Assuming that by 'better' you mean 'achieves higher grades in public exams'

The Times today has just highlighted the huge differences in % of people in top professions between state and private.

The real 'eye' opener though is not the numbers from private schools but the numbers from grammar schools. The truth is more people get in to top professions from grammar schools 5% than Comprehensives 80% (8%) modern !.

Thank goodness for the 164 grammar schools that exist !. The 'Comprehensives' that have been succesful are infact selective such as the 'Brit' school selected on 'talent/abilty'.

The only way to reduce the huge discrepancies in the numbers of people from state education in top professions is to introduce more selective state schools.

To those that say a grammar school ,= 2/3 modern schools the truth is in many areas the Comprehensives schools are worse than any modern school could be.

Jonesthegirl -the Times is simply reporting the latest findings of the Sutton Trust which regularly publishes these types of report.They can be misleading since there are certain professions (such as barristers) where the low/uncertain wages in the early years provide a barrier to entry for those without parental support.It is therefore not surprising to see private school domination of the judiciary or indeed the higher echelons of the military (where salaries are also relatively low for junior officers meaning that family money helps). Note also that in the UK about 50% of the nation's wealth is owned by the richest 10% of society nearly all of whose offspring are privately educated. It is hardly a great surprise that these offspring dominate the professions which would probably be the case whether or not there were private schools. Grammar schools are these days almost entirely middle class with some of them having virtually no pupils on FSM.

I agree with you Jones.

Whilst I think it should be obvious that state schools can never hope to equal the performance of good private schools, I do think that there are things about private schools that would improve the state system. Unfortunately they are not the things that governments think are a good idea. Governments just go 'More targets! Tougher performance management! More stringent regulations! Change the syllabus! '

What was noticeable in the private school where I taught was the lack of obvious and heavy-handed control and systems. Teachers were trusted to teach. Achievement was not entirely driven and judged by numbers on a graph.

The prevailing atmosphere was not one of whips cracking and dragging pupils up a grade. It did not feel like working on a hard-nosed sales floor where you will be kicked to the kerb if you don't shift enough units. That's what state education feels like at the moment. But teaching and learning isn't business and it doesn't work on a business model. Private schools seem to know that. Why don't politicians? People don't teach and learn best in that kind of atmosphere.

I hear that the man being tipped as the next head of Ofsted is going to be an American import. We'd be better off looking to the Scandinavians imo. Much more level-headed, forward-thinking and egalitarian attitude to education, especially in Finland, from what I've read.

Sorry - we teachers do love the sound of our own voices...

"So, you are all in agreement that selective private schools are better than your average comprehensive school?"

What donut mean by "better?"