Chemistry or Biology at A Level

[itwillbebetter]

DS1 needs to choose between the two. He is already planning to take physics and maths. He has always been set on chemistry but just lately has found biology more enjoyable. He is equally matched in both and predicted A*. He has had his heart set on a career in nuclear physics for ages but just suddenly is pondering medicine.

I will have the chance to speak to Head of sixth form but was interested in other viewpoints as to which one is more beneficial to keep his options open?

We're not entering students for AS, unsure at the moment what will happen as a result - whether it will mean we have less dropping the 4th subject in Y13 than usual.

Getting a medicine place is hard. A and A offers so far. Is your DS predicted largely A grades at GCSE?

I'd suggest three Sciences and Maths for Y12. Do they not allow that with an option to drop one in Y13? Look at the numbers the schools get into Med/Vet/Oxbridge. We run programmes to support students applying for these programmes.

Chemistry is essential for medicine but so is biology for entry into many medical schools. I think your DS needs to negotiate starting off with four A levels even if he has to drop one very early just so he can postpone making his decision. One of my DCs had a clear favourite science at the end of year 11 but then found the A level syllabus for another much more interesting.

Slightly different, ds1 wants to be a vet. The advice from all of the unis we have spoken to is biology and chemistry with either maths or physics and one other.

I understand medicine is very similar so based on that if he only wants to do 3a levels I would be thinking bio, physics and chem possibly dropping maths. Ds1 is planning on doing all four to be on the safe side- he also loves these subjects and couldn't decide which to drop.

Speak to some unis, read the recommendations.

Talkinpeace you are mistaken in the way you interpret offers. They are the absolute minimum acceptable standard for someone who has been made an offer. That should never be a target for someone deciding what to start at A level. Admissions folk at top unis are able to choose from a large field of candidates and in STEM subjects that will include a great many doing 4 or 5 (M, FM, P,C,B). They might well offer on 3 to those in the end (and if you get 3 you can optimise which ones). Ignore the offers (these are the bottom of what is acceptable) and look at the data on the Complete University Guide (but allow for a bit of bias for other contributions to points, as I suggested). The tough courses at top unis are stuffed with people who did 4 or 5 so that is where to aim if you want to look like a successful candidate. The only "mums net bubble" is one of delusion that you can aim low and reliably successfully compete at the top end. And my views are not just based on the data on the C.U.G. - I taught at Cambridge, Oxford, Kings and UCL over the years including being responsible for a major subject admissions at an Oxford college. OP - "thoughts are very much based on taking 3" is right in terms of observing what people believe, and I will not dispute your experience. The problem is that it is totally disconnected from the reality of the competitive end of admissions. Are these the "thoughts" of people who have been to a top uni, let alone worked on admissions or taught there?

I agree Gloria. People are talking about what was standard in the past not what is happening this year with the new A levels.

Thanks for all the input.

Ds will be attending a selective private school for sixth form for which he was offered an academic scholarship after rigorous exams and interviews. We are based near Cambridge and the school has a strong Oxbridge tutoring system. He is largely predicted A* A's in his GCSE's apart from a B in DT.
During the initial sixth form evening many parents asked the question on the wisdom of only taking 3 A levels. The school was adamant that due to AS levels becoming obsolete, 3 quality A levels plus stellar GCSE's are preferable.

I have just re-read the blurb on the prospectus which reads ...
"It is important to note that even the most selective universities only require 3 A levels..... It is the quality of the grades awarded rather than the quantity of subjects which is significant..... Your Son's acceptance by a particular university will be based on his GCSE results, personal statement, tutor reference and ultimately, A level results gained."

Interestingly all the selective private schools that we visited said the same thing. However the local state sixth form (which has very impressive results) offered him an immediate place but suggested 5 A levels.

roguedad I shall certainly research the Complete University Guide and have a chat with the Head of Sixth Form. Thank you for that.

It will be very intersting to see how admissions departments in the most competitive uni courses sort through the shambles of different approaches by dfferent schools to the new A level / AS debacle.

AS levels have not been scrapped. They have just become optional, as they no longer count towards the full A2. DS's school (bog standard comp) has decided to retain them and continue to offer 4 subjects to AS in yr 12, dropping to 3 A levels in yr 13.

How, for example, would a medical school compare a student with A level maths, physics chemistry from a school that didn't do ASs, to a student with the same A levels plus a separate biology AS?

itwillbebetter the independent school are not wrong in their blurb but they are talking about the end result for year 13 and possibly year 12. However for your DS he has some big decisions to make and under the new system he can't keep both open. If he seriously wants to do physics and is coming from a school that does Further Maths then he should do it plus maths and physics. If he wants to do medicine then he needs chemistry but also biology for most medical schools. That is why he should ask to try out four A levels at least for the first halfterm if he finds it a difficult decision to make.

My sons selective private school offer EPQ as a 4th option for those academically capable.

To clarify I mean under his prospective sixth form's new system with 3 A levels only year 12 and 13.

Only those doing maths & further maths take 4 a levels.

Send summer - but how can he try out a 4th a level if the timetable is not going to be structured that way.

Most schools especially independent schools will have some flexibility in the individual's timetable and know that teenagers change their minds early on in sixth form. If there absolutely is n't any flexibility and he cannot make a decision that would sway me to the state sixth form.

Ds2 is also doing an EPQ (on top of 4 subjects in yr12). His older brother did one too. I'd be wary of classing it as equivalent to a 4th A level subject because although they carry UCAS points the unis looking for A level grades seemed supremely uninterested in it and don't use UCAS points anyway. Something to write about in your PS but that's about it.

DS1 applied and is doing an academic uni subject now and wrote about his EPQ in his PS. He had 5 interviews and only in one iinterview did he even get asked about his EPQ (on a very relevant topic). DS noticed that the uni tutor who did ask had an open page on his computer screen what is an EPQ?

To answer the OP, I'd keep M and P and add C if he can only do 3. He may rule out a small number of med schools, but most will be happy with no Bio.

A selective private school shouldn't be turned down in favour of a state option just because the state one offers five subjects. You need to compare results between the two. I'm sure that goes without saying actually.

As for the 'must do at least 4' brigade. Chill. Decoupling AS and A2 is a game changer. The tariff is also changing (in favour of Scotland actually - so maybe you should consider moving....) so the difference between institutions will be smaller.

The average tariff of entrants published on the league tables is to a not insignificant extent gamed by the universities, so don't extrapolate to assume everyone on that course has umpteen A stars at A level.

I once asked a Cambridge professor, an admissions tutor, ‘Would taking 4 or even 5 A-levels be advantageous over someone who takes 3 A-levels?

Answer: We only look at 3 A-levels.

Next question:

Everything else being equal, Candidate A has 3 A-level grades: A A A*
Candidate B has 4 A-level grades: A A A plus another A
Who gets the place?

Answer:
Who do you think?

To answer the OP, I'd keep M and P and add C if he can only do 3. He may rule out a small number of med schools, but most will be happy with no Bio.

I agree with this. No university would take him for physics without A level maths.

Which is sage advice Pete for those applying WITH their results.

But question 1 is the key one for all those applying with only predicted grades.

Ds1 selective state school usually gets 30+ to Oxbridge. Ds1 year will be doing 4 A levels with the option of further maths and something else, poss epq- I switched off then as the info is relevant for ds1 not me. If his teachers recommend it he will probably do it. He won't do further maths though as he needs time for voluntary work alongside.

He has always been set on chemistry but just lately has found biology more enjoyable. He is equally matched in both and predicted A.*

Agree with the other posters that for medicine, Chemistry is an essential subject at A level. However I would also add that it is important for an A level student to enjoy the subjects that they have chosen (especially if he can only choose 3 options). Chemistry at A level is very different to GCSE. He may enjoy the fact that it is more mathematical for example. However it depends what part of the subject he doesn't enjoy. For medicine you really need the Organic (carbon) Chemistry to help for the biochemistry and this isn't always the area that students who are good at Physics enjoy/ are best at.
Has he considered medical Physics as an alternative to medicine or nuclear Physics? Other medical related fields such as radiography or optometrics would also be possible with this type of A level combination.

catslife medical physics and nuclear physics are both subspecialisms of the same physics degree. You can either apply for physics with ... or choose later to add it to your degree title. All it means in practice is you do all the relevant options. It's easy to switch from one to another.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at talking about organic chemistry. All a levels involve an element of compromise with having to cover boring topics. I hated plants on a level biology and anything related to optics on my physics degree. Isn't that just life?

I know that purpledaisies but the common wisdom on MN is that Biology doesn't really go well with Physics, which isn't always true.

All a levels involve an element of compromise with having to cover boring topics. Yes but this depends on how the course is structured and how well the student is still motivated in working hard on topics they don't like. Some students don't have the self discipline to do this.

LDG - sounds like my school!

Work experience well worth considering. We've found those with long stints of less glamorous work experience have fared better than those with a week in a hospital this year.

I'm a biologist and I would recommend Chemistry over Biology. Its just so useful and essential for Medicine. I'm not sure about the 3 or 4 A levels but it does seem to be shifting back to 3 A levels. However back when I was doing my A levels in the 80's the really bright kids did 4 (and a couple even did 5 but i think that included further maths), so don't see why those that are capable couldn't do 4.