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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

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Original poster

Fair or unreasonable?

75 replies

bkgirl · 11/02/2016 16:47

Child phoned v. stressed from bus to say had forgotten something and would I leave it in to school office before a certain time and she would call by the office to collect it (secondary school). I did but the school refused to give it to her saying the policy was that nothing would be passed over since it would be unfair to children who forgot things and they hadn't someone to bring them in.
What do you think?
Fair or unreasonable?

OP posts:

Bolognese · 13/02/2016 00:07

The point is that teachers are not the dictators of what parents want

noblegiraffe · 13/02/2016 00:13

Not all parents want to mollycoddle their kids.

And there's usually a home-school agreement. You want to send your kid to this school? You have to abide by their uniform policy etc.

Bolognese · 13/02/2016 00:28

I agree not all parents want to mollycoddle their kids. But its not your call to make!

Does your school have a 'parents cant drop pe kit/homework at school policy'? If so then I would say its ok for that school. But I would never send my child there.

noblegiraffe · 13/02/2016 00:55

I have made that call! If a kid says 'I'll just get my mum to...' I say 'no, you are not phoning your mum, who undoubtedly has better things to do, to tell her to stop what she is doing and bring in your homework'. The kid usually looks pretty shame-faced, tbh. They are teenagers!

It's not my school policy, hence the sixth formers who think their mum is a skivvy.

freddiethegreat · 13/02/2016 09:32

But noble, my son's teachers frequently tell me (correctly) that they see x number of kids a week & can't always remember/differentiate/allow for individual circumstances. But I can. So if my son calls/texts me (at an appropriate time!) to bring something, I get to make the judgement re whether he's relying unduly on me/whether it's a kind gesture of understandable support/whether I can (often the issue, as I am also a teacher). My son has multiple additional issues, so I get to take those into account - or not - too. Not his teacher(s), who, by their own admission only have limited knowledge of him. If I can't/choose not to make it work appropriately, in liaison with school if there's a major issue, then I can't/don't. But that's my choice to make not yours. I'd be delighted if my son were organised enough to text me a list of ingredients. I might well make him go & get them, but at least then the list wouldn't get lost! Good strategy I'd say (under our specific circumstances, which teachers may not know).

noblegiraffe · 13/02/2016 10:02

The list of ingredients weren't texted as the list was given, the ingredients were texted for a lesson in a couple of hours time because the girl had not only forgotten her food tech ingredients, but she had neglected to even let her parents know that she needed them so they weren't in the house. That's not good organisation!

I'm usually pretty aware of the kids with multiple additional issues in my classes. It's not them that's texting their mums.

senua · 13/02/2016 10:08

Senua, it would be very rare that the item is so vital that the kid can't do without it.

You were the one saying that the absence of the item was worthy of a detention. It either is or it isn't!
My solution means that the DC get the optimal educational outcome (taking part in games because they have their kit, getting their homework marked because it was handed in, etc) but still taking the consequences. The parent would have to hand in at Reception, so Reception can tell the teacher which DC to reprimand.

And there's usually a home-school agreement. You want to send your kid to this school? You have to abide by their uniform policy etc.

HSA are a load of old tosh.
Parents may want to sent their DC to XYZ school but they have no power over the decision. They cannot choose a school, they can only offer a preference.
HSA are imposed by the school, there is no negotiation. That doesn't fit in with the normal dictionary definition of 'agreement'!
I bet HSA would fail under Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts law.

noblegiraffe · 13/02/2016 10:12

The parent would have to hand in at Reception, so Reception can tell the teacher which DC to reprimand.

Yeah, because in a school of 1500 students, people haven't got more important things to be doing.

It can be worthy of a detention and still not be vital. No one has failed their GCSE because they didn't hand in a piece of homework, or had to sit out of a PE lesson.

senua · 13/02/2016 10:22

You are not being consistent. You say that handing out a detention your way causes the DC to reflect and decide not to repeat the behaviour. Under my system the DC still gets the detention so they also reflect and learn not to repeat the behaviour, don't they?

Surely the most important thing is that the DC have the correct equipment etc in school? How it gets there is another matter entirely.

noblegiraffe · 13/02/2016 10:50

I'm discounting your method entirely because it places ridiculous expectations on the school to run around after your kid making sure they not only have their stuff but also get a detention.

There is this tendency for some parents to not want their child to face any sort of setback. They won't let their children fail occasionally, and it's not healthy.

A child who early on forgets their PE kit and sits out of a lesson will find out that it's not the end of the world.

Siolence · 13/02/2016 11:00

Noblegiraffe you speak a lot of sense.

senua · 13/02/2016 11:01

expectations on the school to run around after your kid making sure they not only have their stuff but also get a detention.

Nobody is running around after the DC. The parent hands in at Reception, the DC collect from Reception. If you want, we can charge the parent a pound a time for the inconvenience caused so there is pain for the DC (detention) and pain for the parent (fine).

Siolence · 13/02/2016 11:06

What about the children whose parents/carers are unable to fetch forgotten items and take them to school?

senua · 13/02/2016 11:12

What about the children whose parents/carers are unable to fetch forgotten items and take them to school?

They miss the equipment, get a detention and learn not to do it again.
If the parent brings in the equipment then the DC gets the full learning experience but still gets a detention, the parent gets a fine and we all learn not to do it again.

Siolence · 13/02/2016 11:22

So a two tier system. One child gets a full learning experience and one learns that someone else will sort it for them. Noblegiraffe pointed out it is the mother who sorts it out in her experience. It's another example of family work that is picked up by women.

noblegiraffe · 13/02/2016 11:38

Nobody is running around after the DC. The parent hands in at Reception, the DC collect from Reception. If you want, we can charge the parent a pound a time for the inconvenience caused

So all this happens without any work for the admin staff involved? You know, the ones who will have to take the stuff, make a note of who it is for, put it somewhere, talk to the kid when they turn up, find the stuff, hand it over, find out who the relevant teacher is, email them to tell them what has happened, and now apparently also handle some sort of financial transaction?

Utterly ridiculous.

Peebles1 · 13/02/2016 12:54

I think Noble is getting an unfair lashing. She (or he?) works in a school so knows the disadvantages to the 'dropping stuff of' idea, which have been clearly outlined. If a kid forgets something so what? If I'm at work I can't be taking stuff in for them, and all my 3 survived. It might feel a little unfair to them at the time to get detention or whatever, but life's unfair - they'll get over it. I do sympathise OP and at first I thought you were right to be a bit miffed, but Noble has pointed out the other view which seems entirely reasonable to me.

senua · 13/02/2016 15:37

Yeah, because in a school of 1500 students, people haven't got more important things to be doing.

I'm waiting for you to say "teaching would be so much easier if we didn't have to deal with those pesky kids and their pesky parents."

I feel sad for your DC/parents that you are such a huge impersonal organisation that you don't have time for them.

bruffin · 13/02/2016 15:50

Fair

I have a very disorganised dyslexic who was good at forgetting stuff, he had to learn the hard way.
DH works full time, I work 3 days a week and dont drive and school is 7 miles away. Anything forgotten stays forgotten, i am not going to spend £5 on a train fare and 2 hours out of my day going to school and back to deliver said forgotten item

Siolence · 13/02/2016 15:58

I'm fairly sure most secondary schools do not have an allocated secure space to hold handed in items or a member of staff employed to receive them, note who it belongs to, look up the timetable of the student, email multiple teachers to pass on the message (teachers are not checking emails when teaching) and be available for items to be picked up.

KimmySchmidtsSmile · 13/02/2016 16:14

Just in the interest of balance, it is my husband who has on more than one occasion swooped in to save DD by leaving his office and going down to her school. My mobile phone is usually switched off.

As to whether DC need saving, yes, you can drop them on their sorry arse to face the ramifications/consequences of being forgetful/disorganised or you can mollycoddle/save the day.
On the occasions I have opted to do the latter it is probably because my kid would have been less disorganised had I myself been less flaky. It is all very well to talk of kids' self sufficiency and accountability but where parents are being crap/borderline negligent (like when I forgot to wash the P.E. kit and no, she wasn't old enough to have done it herself) a little kindness/flexibility goes a long way.

That said, my DH and I would never rely on an office
We would either:

Directly meet her during designated break time for handover
Embarrass her in front of friends/staff by doing a visible handover so she gets better at not forgetting random crap
(Not UK)

As a former teacher though, it would not have bothered me. But as I was being expected to chase/sanction every missing/late homework
and ridiculously in one school, never have any missing/crosses/black marks ever...yeah, right. So, in that regard, parents making an effort would have been doing me a favour. Similarly, if they wanted to bring in £ that at one time, I was being expected to collect in, or kit or equipment or ingredients....hell, we all have off days. If it was every day then unreasonable but otherwise

KimmySchmidtsSmile · 13/02/2016 16:17

In my day Siolence even in secondary, you had two kids as 'runners' every day from different forms who did one day 'office duty/experience/ gofering' each year. They used to do stapling/run errands and do this kind of thing.

Siolence · 13/02/2016 16:35

I'd love to hear the backlash for a school doing that now KimmySchmidtsSmile

KimmySchmidtsSmile · 13/02/2016 16:46

Yeah, cannot see it happening now but we are talking it still happening ten years ago
In fairness, the kids had work from each teacher they would have that day sent to them (that was a pain to provide) so they were on task in between tasks iyswim. But, being gofers/doing menial tasks (was never called that, cannot remember what it was called, office duty?) did mean:
They had an insight into what the office did so respected them more (allegedly)
They had an insight into work experience/internship/being a general dogsbody so real world less of a shock
They enjoyed being given responsibility and having a different day off-timetable being special

Think we did it with just year 7 and 8 and really don't recall any parent complaining...

Bolognese · 13/02/2016 17:30

My DC school uses a runner everyday, not aware of any backlash. They only use KS3 so it doesn't impact GCSE's. Mobiles are banned inside school and if one is caught then a parent has to go in to get it back. The office staff are very friendly and always seem happy to help parents/kids, (but the school only has 1400 pupils so I guess they have very little else to do).

I would have though a teacher would be happy to have all the classes homework in rather than it coming in drips and drabs. PE would rather have children with the kit rather than having to sort something out for a pupil who has nothing etc if a parent is inconvenienced then they can say NO, make the judgement call to teach their children to be responsible or decide to support their DC and bring something in. That's a parents call to make. If a parent cant bring the item in then that's just tough, its called life.

I just don't get the argument that office staff have other things to do. I don't get the argument that an individual teacher should dictate the mother has better things to do than support the child. I do not get the argument that children will learn to be independent if you give them enough detentions, talk about giving the school more work to do. And I certainly dont see how a mother putting DC's homework in the school bag isn't punished but a mother who forgets to put the homework in the bag and rushes it into school at 9am the next morning is worthy of a detention for the DC. Where is the equality in that?

No, all children and families are not equal, that's life and I find it very sad that some teachers have the belief that they have to force everyone to be equal at the bottom. Is that communism or fascism?

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