Following on from the "bright child" thread is it cultural capital that is really needed to succeed & if so how??

[winemummy1]

I am following the bright child thread with interest as I'm resigned to the fact that due to income & where we are based our little dc will not be going private or to a well regarded state school, dh & I are determined to do all we can to help them succeed. I have read on here before about cultural capital & thats what gets one ahead as opposed to academic success. All the private school kids I know & grown up ones too have this buckets of this... Is it all foreign travel, private school extras, confident parents, money... & how do parents who can't afford to buy in the catchment of good state or afford private fees provide cultural capital.

I want my DC to be happy kind caring and make a contribution to society.

I've met a special kind of arrogance from many privately educated people which I think may be mistaken for a comfortable confidence but I believe is rooted in insecurity and competitiveness.

I believe everyone is equal. If going to the wrong school means I can't join a certain club, well it's sure as shit I wouldn't want to be in that club anyway!

I suspect that the older styles of cultural capital still have some sway in the established professions e.g. if one of your parents is a High Court judge then you will probably be able to get interesting work experience and talk knowledgably at interviews in the legal field. On the other hand, it might not get you very far with a tech company. They will be looking for other factors, it might be gaming skills and a you tube channel will do you more good.

However, the elite in this country is still largely dominated by people who have achieved through old style cultural capital or new entrants who quickly adopt old style cultural capital (kids go to private schools and parents wander around in wellies and barbours talking about hunting, shooting and fishing )

Education is one of the most valuable examples of cultural capital there is.

Education can be directly and easily transferred into wealth and influence. Although of course different types of education will have more transfer value than others (not always to do with quality, but perception).

I'm an immigrant, and I just don't get the British private education club. It seems that you can only have success in politics, law or other prestigious high paid jobs if you went to Oxbridge.

In my native country Denmark we do have private schools, but they are part state funded, so accessible to most people (we're talking £100 per month per child, and most offer sibling discounts). It still matters who you know and what you know, but it's not decided by wether your parents paid for your education or not.

I do remember children from my class who were obviously priviledged, and it seemed to have a lot to do with what their parents did for a living and who they knew. Ie. the child of a single mum just didn't have the same possibilities as the child who's dad was a CEO of some huge company and mum stayed at home and helped with home work ect. But when I bump into old class mates, it seems that happiness hasn't got much to do with wealth or education.

Obviously we all want our children to do well, but although money does help, it certainly doesn't guarantee happiness.

I am educated, but I am by no means wealthy. I am often happy, and I consider myself lucky, as my health is good as are my children's.

Education can be directly and easily transferred into wealth and influence

Hmmph, I'm not too sure about this. Maybe in the past, but now, without some sort of financial capital to go with it, waving round a bunch of qualifications is not a guaranteed pathway to success. University fees and terrible cost of accommodation (I'm talking London here, but that's where it's still at...) are making it much more difficult for someone starting at point zero to clamber up the slippery pole.

A bit more... for example internships can only really be taken up by those whose parents already live in London. They either pay nothing or very little which means that a young person living in, say, Swindon, could not afford to live whilst doing the placement and couldn't even afford the train fare. Of course if someone wants to be a doctor/vet/accountant the London thing doesn't matter, but if we are talking about investment banking or meeedja-type jobs then there is little opportunity outside of the capital (in spite of the BBC trying hard with Salford).

rhoda I agree with you.

Most cultural capital is part and parcel of a package, rarely working alone.

And yes the irony of requiring real capital in order to build cultural capital which can be transferred into real capital ...

That's one if the reasons I take the view that middle class signifiers are not as valuable as many think. Listening to radio four is a lovely thing to do, but it won't get you a position there.

I suspect that the older styles of cultural capital still have some sway in the established professions

Not just in the established professions, but they always get the bad press.

What about children of pop stars, actors, sportsmen who have only achieved because of their parental name and connections? What about children who follow in their family business, whether a plumber or a shop owner?

You just can't separate the family background - it's so ingrained into the child's future, and that's the case whether the family or rich or poor - it's more than that, it's connections, it's work ethic, it's life outlook. Nepotism is everywhere, not just in the ruling elite and established professions.

Quite. I was a bit "I might have known" when I read that the Ella's Kitchen woman is the Sainsbury's heiress.

Rhoda
It gets better not only is Deliciously Ella's mother the Sainsbury's heiress, her father is an MP (former cabinet minister) and her partner is Tessa Jowell's son.

And they all marry each other! In Denmark it's a well-known fact that authors marry critics, and all the new TV presenters have actor parents. So it stays in the family.

That is not to say that these people are without talent - but they also know the rigth people and they grew up knowing how to succeed in their profession.

But at the same time, no one bats an eye lid when the garage mechanics son gets an apprenticeship at his father's workplace.

There is nepotism and social mobility stop gaps at all levels. It's just more noticeable in professions that get lots of media coverage, like politics and the arts.

Some cultural capital is WHOM you know. Can't help you there.

I grew up in a trailer Park. But my mother loved opera, my father read ancient Greek, and we did things like going digging for fossils in our spare time. The whole family were bookworms.

But it took my own initiative to get used to being around higher class people, eating in fine restaurants, trips abroad etc.

Frankly, you can only give your children what you can model for them. The rest is up to them.

Still unsure how all of this is relevent when there is no discussion or consensus of what "success" is.

Success might not be wealth, a job or intelligence. Can anyone here countance the idea that success is not one of those three things? (I'm guessing not by the existing response).

Success can mean all manner of things.

For example, I'm very involved in outreach for university. Success in that means widening participation in a meaningful way.

However to do that, I very much need to be 'part of the conversation' which requires every bit as much cultural capital as achieving success in my work life.

That's an excellent example of cultural capital translating to influence, Eric, without wealth accumulation as its end point. Women are often interested in using their own cultural capital for the greater good and achieve great satisfaction from righting injustice, redistributing opportunity etc. Not so good for women's wealth accumulation, however.

I suspect that 'success' for most WC or MC parents means their children earning considerably more than the parents do and having a nicer/bigger house in a well-to-do area and a more aspirational lifestyle. Which is easy to sneer at in a 'Money doesn't make you happy - it's all about fulfilment' way, but actually those are all perfectly reasonable things to want for your children. I'd love my dc to be passionate about their jobs, but actually for myself I'd be pretty happy doing a 9-5 not particularly fulfilling job if I had a nice lifestyle. I chose my career out of passion and wanting to be useful to society and am bitterly regretting it at the moment.

Oh you'll get no sneering from me merciful.

I've been poor and now I'm rich. No contest as to which situation is easier/healthier/less stressful/enjoyable.

I think money helps immensely in making you happy. There's no happiness in not being able to pay the bills. Money just doesn't guarantee happiness, there are other factors, like health, work satisfaction and relationships.

Success I guess is achieving your goals. I think it's important to talk to our children about goals. My parents were very much a result of their youth, late 1960's / early 1970s, and success and money were dirty words, they were both teachers, and for both of them getting an education was a big deal. At school, the teachers assured us that everything would be fine as long as we got an education - not true! When I graduated, unemployment was high among academics, and many of my peers found it very hard to find work, many were unemployed for years.

I would have liked to have defined my goals better when I was choosing what to study. But then again, if someone had asked, I would have found it very hard to answer. I guess my parents tried not to interfere too much with my choices.

We talk a lot to our DCs about work and education. DH watches Dragon's Den and plays Monopoly with them. I talk to them about what kind of jobs they should avoid because they are not paid very well. (I did most of them as a student!). Unfortunately that's jobs like teaching, working with children, nursing and other very important fields. Quite horrid, really. I want my children to find work that they enjoy and can make a living from. In particular I want my DD to be able to support herself - most of the women in DH's family can't actually support themselves, I guess they thought they would find rich husbands, something I still struggle to understand after 15 years in England, that so many women are financially dependant of their spouses.

DS (10) has recently joined the debating club at his state primary, they just won the first round of a debating competition against other schools, and the boost in confidence to the kids taking part is really remarkable. DS has suddenly realised the value of being able to express himself well now thinks it's cool to speak in public. I think that this is something that will stand them in great stead in the future.

My secondary school ran a public speaking competition every year. Each child had to write a speech and perform it in front of their class and finalists in front of the whole school. As a result I've never had a fear of making presentations at work etc.

I think this type of confidence is really important. Maybe harder to do at home but can be done my encouraging discussion of issues, drama classes etc

I have friends who have children in schools in the US and they're expected to talk and present to their class from a really young age. They're so confident and learn such a valuable skill.
Id like the schools here to do that.

I agree about the US wooden spoon, I have alot of extended family in the states & their kids even the preschoolers are so articulate & confident!

A great public speaking competition for Y11,12 and 13 is Poetry By Heart.

Any school can enter a pupil in the county heats.

To be successful all you need is good education. No need for museums or theatre or tennis.

This thread reminds me of a date I went on with a fund manager some years a go. I was early 20s and he mid mid 20s. Went to a posh restaurant. Decided on a 3-course lunch then guy goes and does everything in reverse. I was a little embarrassed tbh, looked around quickly to see if anyone was staring at us.

He was a brilliant Chinese guy, went to Imperial followed by a PhD at Cambridge. His bonus alone ran into mil of pounds.

That's only one measure of success, the right kind in my book. If you want to hobnob with nobility on the other hand then perhaps you need the other things listed above.

Eric Re your 20:16 post, isn't your educational background the most important factor in widening participation?

OP

Your DC might not be going private or to a well regarded state school but you shouldn't let that worry you too much. The brick-and-mortar classroom education is so last century. You can still help them succeed with the wealth of educational resources available online.

As a non Brit with zero cultural capital, I got invited for interviews by every single top tier investment bank in London that I applied to. Applying from outside the UK. And that was with the quants teams, so a number of hurdles to overcome; a woman; a non Brit and quants. I only went to 2 of the interviews and accepted a job with the first bank to interview me.

In the end I didn't like the quants environment so much and switched to another area and eventually moved to boondocks in another country and worked in IT.

What I am trying to say is that education is KING. Over and above any cultural capital.

I am not terribly familiar with UK schools curriculum but would advise you pay careful attention to what's on offer in each of the schools your DC may potentially go to because what's on offer can apparently differ greatly. You want to avoid schools that have a heavy focus on mickey mouse subjects.

I fear only immigrants/DC of immigrants will get me and everyone else will think am talking nonsense.