What would you think about this school?

[WoodHeaven]

Dc1 has started Y7. He is clearly unimpressed but have decided to let him settle down a bit more before doing anything. However, there are a few things that make me uneasy.

• in most subjects, they have two teachers. One is clearly 'leading' whereas the other is mostly a supply teacher. These teachers change a lot (eg he has had 4 teachers In French, all supply teachers, so far covering half of the lessons. The other half is covered by the 'main' teacher who us now off such until after the hols).

It is also known by the children that X is covering for different subjects as far apart as history and science.

• not a lot been done in the first term st all as it seems that teachers couldn't work well wo the children all having iPads. And they didnt come in until after half term.
• poor communication. We were told the children would be evaluated against their first standard evaluation when they first started. No info about what these levels are (some have been given to the children, others didn't). Reports were supposed to be available this week as per calendar. Again nothing there a week on. They are still doing the evaluations.
• dc1 also report regular fifghts at lunch time. Apparently said children end up in detention wo much effect.
• more specifically for dc1, clearly nothing in place either if your child is G&T. He us fluent in French (bilingual) and have been assured he would get specific work. Nothing has happened so far. Supply teachers arrive not knowing they have a bilingual child in the class. Similar issue in maths or science.

Quite a few children have left in the last few weeks which makes me think I'm not the only one wondering.

So what would you think? Normal or an issue?

We don't have iPads. There is no link to them and improved results.

Don't get me going about iPads. Even dc1 thinks they are crap as it means everyone is playing in their iPads at lunch time and no one is talking to each other anymore :(

It's not just whether it makes a difference or not with teaching. It's all the social aspect too.

Unfortunately I think a lot of this stems from the changes made to education in the last few years. And the only way to change that is to wait another four and hope things change in the next GE. In the meanwhile, be ready for things to get worse, and pray the NHS doesn't go the same way.

It is very normal for state school teachers to have good intentions or say things to please the parents at meetings but not deliver those words in a sustained way, either because of not being that extra bit dedicated in a time poor system or genuinely unable to add that academic extra. I think one has to be realistic as a parent.

I think you should expect more. It's true that when there is a sudden staffing problem, you prioritise your exam classes, but your son's situation sounds appalling.

Please do not expect any extension work for a bilingual DC in a state school, the teachers even when good do not have the time.. That's not true. You should definitely expect that. Perhaps not every lesson (bilingual kids tend not to spell properly because it's all quite phonetic for them so they need practice) but yes of course they can easily adapt a homework. Instead of writing about their school they can compare their primary with their secondary; instead of completing a crossword they can create clues; instead of writing about their family using basic phrases they can be given a list of 10 more complex words to include. Any teacher worth their salt can surely differentiate for one.

Iguana I accept that I am making sweeping generalisations based on our experience of one otherwise excellent state school and other French friends' DCs' experiences. However the stretching that you mention needs the teacher to have the time as well as inclination to think of extra tasks and provide proper feedback on more advanced work in and out of class. Since quite a lot of homework of GCSE years seems to get allocated to preparing for all these fairly useless assessments I don't know how the teachers can differentiate for that. The iGCSE does seem a more sensible exam.

I also know anecdotally that good selective private schools have properly differentiated with advanced texts and expecting more in top set class and offering extra bilingual classes. However obviously resources are greater in those schools.
By the way a lot of bilingual DCs will be reading in their other language so their written work will also be a lot more advanced even if they need practice.

It hardly takes any time to differentiate and it should be happening. There are very few truly bilingual children who operate at the same level in both L1 and L2. The vast majority of kids I have taught who are "bilingual" can understand nearly everything said, can read pretty well, but their depth of language awareness is very limited and based on chat the family might have at home rather than more formal expression etc. French/English bilingual children tend to make a lot of errors with é/ais endings, for example. The mechanics of the language for them are more sketchy because although they hear it and can say it, obviously not many families sit down and have formal language lessons like they would experience if they were learning that language in the country.

Iguana I fully agree with your last post. I also think it's pretty normal. Children in France would be working on these issues as well as formal type of writting etc the same way than in the UK (learning to spell, write and speak English), through Primary. Then They carry on working on their spelling until Y9~10 because spelling has so many issues with it.
So I wouldn't expect a child raised in the UK from one or two french parents to know all about that wo any formal input.

To go back to what Just said. This wasn't said at parents evenings. I had talked to the Head of Language BEFORE he started Y7 (as a warning. You will have a bilingual child there type of thing) and she told me that's what would happened. Then his french teacher called me and said they were going to do x and y.
I actually haven't even asked, let alone pushed that issue. If I had been asking for too much and the teachers couldn't cope, I could understand. But they proposed it, contacted me about it etc....

However, I think it's a wider problem. The extension work isn't there in maths or in science either. And dc1 has been told he would just have to deal with it.
Again I'm aware that it's nowhere near an unusual situatuion for G&T children.

But it's that combined with the overwhelm of the staff, the lack of communication between them, the staff shortage etc... that makes the experience difficult for dc1.

Just btw, if the teacher was telling me they don't have time, I would then be able to say
'OK. I'm working x and y with dc1 at home. Is that in line with what you think he should be working on? What are you working on at the moment (No books are coming back home because apparantly, he doesn't need them...)? I will be going deeper on y subjects with him'.

I'm already doing that sort of work with him. I'm already working on his spelling and the grammar etc. It would very easy for her to give me a tiny bit of guidance on where she sees problem so I can concentrate on that, wo her having to prepare somerthing especially for him.
They could also klet him go out of the classroom (as they have done in previous years with the other bilingual children) and let do him some written work that I will have give him. At least he would be doing something worth while.

So many possibilities that are then not possible just because they tell me one thing and then don't follow up.

It is not a "system" that has been introduced - it is the fact that too many schools are poorly run and teachers do not want to work there. SLT do not consider work/life balance for teachers. However, just leaving must mean the teachers must have plenty of money because no-one I know could afford to do this unless their partner was a decent earner. Ofsted have said there are massive teacher shortages insome areas. There is also a huge shortage of good SLT candidates. Why is it people do not want to be teachers? Where I am, the starting salary is about £22,000 in a primary school within commuting distance of London. A good Maths/Science graduate could get a much better job in London. The same will apply to good graduates in the North who will be looking for better oaid work without the angst. The job has changed. Fewer and fewer people want to do it.

Scholarships rarely pay out much in terms of fee reductions these days. In our old school is was nothing - they were honorary. Bursaries help with fees. Do look into that if you think you may qualify.

Massive leap from 22k to dd's former small comp head on 103,000 though. For that level of earning in the private sector there would began expectation of leadership and competence.

I'm all for teachers getting mire money but it simply has to go hand in hand with more performance management. At dd's school there were issues, and significant ones, with the quality of maths teaching, Spanish, geography, physics, pe. ...... Some of the issues had been embedded for years and there was excuse after excuse. I'm sure those teachers would have been upset by observations but they should have been under performance management years ago and I think that might be some of the problem. The head should have gone through revolving doors within a year but it took 8!

It's also extremely unpopular but science/maths teachers need to be paid more to attract more people into the profession. It's supply and demand and needs to be addressed however unpopular it I within the profession. Those graduates will get higher paid jobs because their skills demand they can and should. If maths and science were was there would be more graduates. If we value those skills we must ensure they are taught exceptionally well. If we can't do that we will reap what we sew generation after generation.

It's a bit chicken and egg but I just don't believe an art or geography teacher should command as high a salary as a maths or chemistry teacher. The art teacher might otherwise curate a museum or work in gallery where they would be lucky to earn as much as a teacher. The maths grad might otherwise began actuary or work in other financial services areas. This isn't an arts v science debate but it is fundamental to one of the principle problems in schools.

Am really happy to pay more tax to pump money into education but I would want reassurances that it would be spent wisely. For the last 20 years it has gone into third rate uni's specialising in the liberal arts. Thankfully that's turning round now.

Let's have higher taxes and better paid teachers. But let's also have more competence, quicker exit routes for those who aren't up to it, a return to acceptable expectations around behaviour and the funding to support those who shouldn't be in mainstream classrooms properly so that teachers can get on with the job of teaching.

And finally an acceptance that one size doesn't fit all. The brilliant scholar destined for Oxbridge needs different skills to the equally important small businessman or woman who will end up running essential services we all use such as hairdressers, plumbers, mechanics, etc. The vocational trades in the UK are woefully under respected and a key place for this to be turned round is in education.

It's a bit chicken and egg but I just don't believe an art or geography teacher should command as high a salary as a maths or chemistry teacher. The art teacher might otherwise curate a museum or work in gallery where they would be lucky to earn as much as a teacher. The maths grad might otherwise began actuary or work in other financial services areas.

I think that is a ridiculous and offensive thing to say. So what if they could hypothetically have a higher salary somewhere else for another job? That's irrelevant. They can go and do that if it's so wonderful. The art teacher could design interiors for millionaires. The maths teacher could be a tortured druggie. Teachers should not be valued differently for their subjects. Why should an utterly shit maths teacher attract a high salary, while an inspirational art teacher have to make do with a low salary? How appalling that would be. As if the profession isn't already on its knees.

There's no point having quicker exit routes when there's nobody there to replace in any event. There's this belief that there are outstanding teachers gently flapping their wings overhead just waiting for a vacancy. There aren't.

Teachers are not motivated by very high salaries. They know the salary when they apply for the job and are prepared to forgo the 3 figure salaries. It's the working conditions and ridiculous pressure by the government and by some ignorant parents that makes the job unattractive. A very high salary would attract the wrong people anyway.

a return to acceptable expectations around behaviour

Schools have high expectations on the whole. They are unable to exclude though without penalties or expensive lawyers.

It's not the quick fix easy solution outsiders think.

I agree with your final paragraph. But I don't know how well you'd choose to pay vocational teachers on your sliding scale of important subjects, so the lack of respect would remain I expect.

How about teachers who taught 2 subjects. Would they be paid at the lower rate for A level Geography, but then cash in when they taught year 7 maths?

Iguana can I ask if you could give me some example of pressures put onto teachers by parents?

I'm just wondering if, for example, expecting a child to be taught at their level is unrequired pressure on the teacher in your opinion.

What I am really trying to do is to understrand how the system is working (I'm not british so have no idea how it's working. I have been told numerous things such as the child working at their own level but have never seen it happened. So is that too much to expect for example? or is it what should happn but can't happen etc...)

Yes of course. Some parents expect their child to get an A or A* at GCSE even if they are unable to get it. Some ask for your schemes of work to give to their tutors which is unreasonable. Some want teachers to give their child weekly hour long personal tuition. Some phone you if there is the tiniest of criticism of their child's work, to tell you that in fact the work is excellent and beyond reproach. Some want you to discipline their child for something they did at home. Some insist on a permanent exclusion for another child who has called their child a name. Some laugh in your face when you tell them their child has been involved in a serious assault or racist incident ("just boys being boys mrs iguana!" "He called my son a name first".). These sorts of things are unreasonable and unsupportive and unhelpful.

Yes teachers should be able to provide each child with work that challenges them. Teachers of split classes should have an effective way to communicate. There should not be as many staffing problems as your son is suffering from. The iPads bother me: if they are integrated as part of a really carefully considered scheme of learning then fair enough. But they are a tool and nothing more. They don't replace proper thinking and challenge. If they are just an add on they are a pointless gimmick.

Some people think that differentiation requires totally different work. It doesn't. It requires thought though. So while the class might be being taught the French for "where do you live?" And most of the class are being taught "I live in xx" your son should be being asked "describe where you live" or when he says he doesn't like it, to be challenged to justify his opinion. While the rest of the class are completing a crossword, he should be being asked to write the clues for example. However, the staffing issues are so systemic in your son's school that challenging the kids is currently the least of their problems. They are struggling to find someone to actually supervise the class at the moment. So the deeper questions about their approach to learning is really neither here nor there.

And that means it doesn't matter then Iguana?

What about when the boot is on the other foot? When your child's class has been disrupted for the nth time and your child is upset and cannot learn. When there are children who swear at the staff, disrupt continually, threaten through facebook, beat up another child, drive a long-standing and respected member of staff to lose it and then to be made to apologise to the class. And the head says it's because they aren't as privileged as some of the others. Are we still expected to suck it up at the expense of our children?

No? Where did I ever say that was ok?

Thank iguana
That's the sort of conclusion I'm coming to. Frustrating for dc1, shouldn't happen but expecting what should happen is actually expecting too much :(

The example you are giving sounds crazy and very hard to deal with....

Can I ask another question?
If tests given cover levels 4, 5 and 6 and a child is getting 95% on the test, would you expect the teacher to actually give that child test that will cover level 7 or 8?

There should be opportunities for a higher level to be tested, yes. Those levels don't "exist" anymore though so there should be a new assessment ladder being followed.

Yep there should be a new evaluation system. Except there isn't and we have been told 'the new curriculum hasn't been implemented yet (by the government)' by the school!!!

Good to know. I will ask for that. Our primary did that too. There was a ceiling for evaluating children and they wouldn't go over xx level in that year :(.
Nice to know they shouldn't be and I can be a bit more forceful!

Latest on the French front. After been told by one teacher that 'Of course you are doing the same test than everyone else. Who do you think you are?', dc1 has been given a CGSE test on do on his own. He hasn't done ANY work at all since the start of the year specific to him or at that level .
Oh and his target for French is 4A (as everyone else) and he was told for querying it too....

Sorry he was told Off for querying it ....

He should be able to do the foundation GCSE French quite easily. Have a look at them online - go to AQA past papers French GCSE and have a look. They are quite straightforward at the start.

I wonder if the supply teachers they have for French are not languages teachers and will therefore not have a good idea about how to extend him.

Frankly though I don't think you will get very far by raising it - I would look for a new school.

Apparently one of them wasn't even speak decent french..... And there has been so many of them.....

Thanks for the advice.

I'll be raising it, both for the french and the maths.
And look at what else we have around here....