Bright child, good school, Year 11, got to choose A Levels. Tell me - 3 or 4?

[nonnomnom]

If your child is reasonably bright and at a good school, can you tell me if they will be expected/are expecting to do 3 or 4 subjects, now that AS Levels are largely going? (Not counting those doing Further Maths or General Studies here.)

DD's school surprised me by saying they needed to do 4 - even if essay subjects - but dd now saying she's only going to do 3 as there only 3 she really wants to do and better to get 3 good results than 4 mediocre ones.

But will decent unis expect 4 now? Or at least 3.5?

What will most Year 11s be doing? National guidance seems unclear.

Thank you...

I would imagine that pushier customers (parents) are part of the reason that private schools might, on average, make more generous grade predictions than state schools.

The UCAS form is no more and no less than a candidate's personal marketing/PR brochure and we do well to remember that.

I wonder if some HE establishments will start increasing science or humanities foundation courses, perhaps similar to art foundation courses, for local students to bridge the gap between imperfect choices and widen access for more selective courses after that foundation year.

BTW looking the bigger picture I am concerned about how UK students compare with those from the rest of Europe. Studying only three subjects in the last two years in high school does not provide a good all round education: our STEM students often have poor language, writing and communication skills while humanities/languages students graduate with very low level knowledge of science and mathematics. Elsewhere in Europe students would study science to the same or similar levels as we do but they would study humanities/languages alongside them (and vice versa).

But who will fund all these extra foundation years? Plenty of places offer science/engineering foundation years already but funding is a big problem. (The least bad scenario would be to use undergraduate student loans, but this is still one extra year of loans, so would put off many people.)

I very much agree, disquisitiones. A-levels are far too narrow in scope.

Although the real problem here is the difference in resources/ knowledge of different schools disquisitiones and that difference exists already.

I was just curious as to what element/s of the new structure SheGotAllDaMoves expects to impact significantly on the disadvantaged but very able student. If a school gives shitty advice then it's going to give shitty advice whether that's in Y11 or 12. I would expect the most mainstream combination will become three A2s with no ASs plus the increasingly popular EPQ - with an honourable exception for Further Mathematicians. Although the funding is promised for able students who want to do four, whatever the subjects.

Lots of crossed posts. Mine was in response to disquisitiones's post two or three back.

As far as general education and a decent grounding goes, the new science specs for GCSE include current AS material, so that at least is some evidence of joined up thinking.

Shitty advice in year 11 under the old system often led to the disadvantaged but bright potential Law student doing History, English, Media Studies and Law In year 12. By the time they get their AS results they'll have looked at universities offering Law a the grades they anticipate, whereupon they realise they ideally need to keep History and English.

Given only 3 subjects to take in year 12 may well lead them to pick English, Media and Law, thus ruling out many of the higher ranking courses. Kids in year 11 do NOT look at future university admissions requirements, particularly those from disadvantaged schools and families.

I was just curious as to what element/s of the new structure SheGotAllDaMoves expects to impact significantly on the disadvantaged but very able student. If a school gives shitty advice then it's going to give shitty advice whether that's in Y11 or 12.

Molio I can give you an example, ok, it's only an example and am not saying this is happening all over the country. My DN is in London.

In two of the schools my DN might go to next year for sixth form, she has been informed she may not take more than 4 x AS dropping down to 3 x A2, and that includes FM.

Now, one of these two schools is in a very deprived area and has a track record (so far) of sending one or two kids to Cambridge every year. These kids always achieved 5As in Maths, FM, Physics, Chemistry and Biology. The fact is, were my DN to apply to Cambridge when the time comes she will be up against kids from private schools and grammar schools who are still able to offer 5As. So that is a disadvantage, no? In the sense that she has been denied the opportunity to show she too is capable of 5 whatever grades?

This is more than just giving advice on what subjects to take.

And as much as I am encouraged by all the posters stating 3As is all you need, I just don't see why a uni would choose to give a place to an applicant offering 3As instead of the one with 5A*s.

So the school in the deprived area may end up with zero students going to Cambridge because of the new changes and that really is an own goal by the government.

Sorry, should have said not including FM.

Although the real problem here is the difference in resources/ knowledge of different schools disquisitiones and that difference exists already.

Yes, Molio, it exists. And if I take that as the baseline then my understanding is that things are about to get worse because of the new changes.

But who will fund all these extra foundation years? Plenty of places offer science/engineering foundation years already but funding is a big problem.
disquis I would suggest online part time foundation courses with materials online, lectures by videos and twice a week tutorials administered and examined by local HE establishment to student. The rest of the time they could work to earn some money. It would cost but less than a full time course and living expenses would n't be required. A lot of courses are being stretched out to 4 years now so some of these should be reduced unless it's a year out in industry or abroad.

My son is in L6 at a selective 6th form. He is very academic. Excluding Further Maths, all the students do 4 subjects in L6 and drop one in U6.

titchy that's precisely what I meant about only taking three possibly concentrating the mind of the more able students. You can't predict whether Y11s at that sort of school will or won't now look more carefully at admissions requirements. It will certainly be incumbent on all Heads of Sixth to guide the Y11s much more carefully when they're making their choices and not leave it until the summer of Y12. And I have to say that I'm attempting to help a particular Y12 at the moment who ticks every single last box in the disadvantaged book and that Y12 looked very carefully at what he needed in Y11, with no pointers from anyone. He won't be completely alone. The difficulties are more likely to manifest lower down the ability and motivation range.

GoMilou 5A* is rare, even in those subjects and even in the very best independent and grammar schools, so I think the issue is fairly niche. I can't answer for those schools, obviously, but offering the diet they're suggesting seems curious to me - four AS still in subjects which have already gone linear? And no students able to do four however able and even with funding available? I'm confused. It doesn't seem a sensible way to move ahead, but that's down to the particular school. If your DN is that able and determined to do that many subjects (good luck incidentally, she'll need it), she should find a different school which offers a broader programme.

In fact GoMilou disquisitiones will be able to answer this accurately, but my guess is that 5A is still not the average set of results for a NatSci student at Cambridge. I don't know what percentage of successful applicants go on to achieve 5A but I'm hoping it's still a minority!

anybody who thinks that the answer to the AS / A" debate will be solved with University places
has not been to enough HE colleges

University places are going to slump back to 20-25% of the cohort
good thing too
so the exams to 18 will need to meet more needs
a mix of A level and BTEC
but many schools do not have the resources for BTEC
especially when mixed with A level
so it will not meet the needs of those most in need

as the Economist said this week, its about time there was Evidence based decision making in UK education

TalkinPeace university places may slump due to reduced funding but there will still be plenty for academic students.
As Molio has said the problem with the new system of sixth form exams is for the lower-mid range students who need something different to top end A levels and fairly useless degree courses.

Talkin evidence based education at universities has created a whole new layer of academics but no tangible improvements.

evidence based education at universities has created a whole new layer of academics but no tangible improvements
link please for RCT studies at Universities.

There are certainly none about school governance and accountability which is - in the big scheme of things - FAR more important than the 1% of precious little dears who go to MN favoured Unis

Molio sorry about the rubbish I posted above re number of subjects at AS.

She is allowed only 4 subjects in Yr12 - only 1 is AS, the other 3 she has to take to Yr13. She may take FM as an additional subject, so will have 4 in Year 13. Everyone who has gone to Cambridge from that school in recent years has had 5A*.

Maybe UCAS needs to extend its role to providing info on A-level choices directly to Y11 and Y12 students? If schools aren't reliable, some other body can be.

Most universities now have education academics. They measure their own work and their continued funding depends on it which means that they have a vested interest in demonstrating an effect from their studies. Other academics just try and do their best with increasing time demands plus more paperwork created by these education academics. They also have time to write for the Economist to highlight the importance of what they do .

In that case the school is obviously doing something right in the science department GoMilou! Does it get any students into Cambridge for other subjects?

That offer sounds more sensible. So really the school is offering one less A Level for able students who can still do four if that includes FM, but they can also do the other science to AS. Given that the specs are significantly more difficult than they were, it seems pretty reasonable to limit numbers marginally at A2. It's really not necessarily the best advice to max out on numbers with the new more difficult specs - it may have nothing to do with funding, since (and I'm aware I've said it three or four times) funding for able students wanting a broader programme is actually there.