More tests or high achieving school which gut instinct says will 'fail'?

[PettsWoodParadise]

Scenario: DD has passed 11+ and wants to go to our closest school the 'excellent' superselective. But there are MAJOR buts. It has major debts, the fabric of the building is crap, the teachers are reportedly OK but some are not. Nearly all the girls do well but general consensus is that the only reason they do so is they are surrounded by like-minded girls who were selected based on ability. Pastoral issues are major at this school but are clearly being addressed with firm decisions by the acting Head. No headteacher at present and only likely to know who it is when DD possibly starts in Sept. last OFSTED in 2014 was outstanding but my gut says if they were inspected tomorrow they would be failing. The Governors used to meet every six weeks, last year they met four times and so far this year they haven't met which all yells 'problem' to me. Just prior to hitting 'send' on the CAF form I was out voted in family meeting by DH and DD (grrr) on sending DD to a grammar that is IMO is better (but not superselective) in the next borough - the argument being transport times. We are not in catchment for a great local comp as otherwise would have jumped at that.

Now before DD passed the state 11+ we were also looking at independents. Only one caught her imagination and she is due to sit the test in early Jan. However now that she knows she is pretty certain to get to this particular local school, the school a fifteen minute train journey away (forty minute door to door journey away) is no longer attractive. We only qualify for a modest bursary, but not insignificant for this school. I also think it is a better fit for DD as it does the IB and lots of other reasons like resources, languages, subject choices, teaching quality, grounds etc etc. DD wants to sit the test only as I want her to. Before pressure from DH she really wanted this school but DH likes being a SAHD (I work full time) and part of the deal was that if she wanted this school then DH would have to get a job once she was at senior school to help pay for the fees. He has had time during the day to extol the virtues of being close to home. Poor DD is caught in the middle trying to please us both. We used to be a united front and didn't do this sort of thing, but long story - I am fed up of always giving in and picking up the pieces when they go wrong (no this isn't turning into a marriage issues thread, that is another story...).

Do I just swallow that I was outvoted and that the convenience outweighs all my major screaming concerns and instinct? Do I keep the door open and encourage DD to sit a test for school she is only now wanting to sit because she wants to please me? DD is happy, don't get the impression she is some mixed up child, but I want to keep it that way!

Sorry for the long essay. Just wanting to get some perspective. Thank you.

I can only give you my experience of Y7 so far, and would say that to some children, a journey of 40 mins is no issue at all, and for others, presents a challenge. Then factor in the bags on top of the school bag, which in our case can sometimes be 4 on a given day. It's a longer day, and depending on your DD's uptake of extra curr. stuff, adds to the commute.

However, I would also struggle to ignore my gut instincts about a school. Your grammar may come right (hopefully will) with the interim recognising what needs to change, and new leadership coming in. I would keep options open, explain to DD that you will support her choice, but a contingency is worth having in light of the challenges the grammar is facing. Even if you didn't accept the place if given, and things did not improve with the grammar, sitting the entrance exams would give you a better chance of getting a place later (e.g. Y8 if there was space).

The 7 years fees are a big consideration vs none, even with a bursary, and no point in taking your family down, if there is resentment to pay them because the changes in lifestyle needed.

Good luck with your decision!

Thanks Ealingwestmum. DH is adamant that sitting another exam is a waste of time as the 'decision has been made'. Your argument that it could be a back-up if things do not work out at the grammar is lovely but suspect the bursary option would only come at the outset and not if we rejected them and then went running back a year later asking for a place. It is also highly oversubscribed. I might see if we can look round the school again, it might help DD realise what she could have and give her a reason to sit the test rather than just wanting to as she knows it is what I want.

Do you have other DC to consider?

I'm surprised that the superselective is failing as badly as you say. The parents at such schools don't usually let the grass grow under their feet - they are usually in there doing fundraisers etc.

If DH is so keen on the school but you have concerns why don't you compromise by suggesting that he applies to be a parent Governor to help turn it round.

I agree the bursary element would not be forthcoming later if declined originally. But there is movement in later years for all kinds of reasons that is made easier when a school has academic results to draw upon, but on a full fee basis more likely.

As the grammar is also your DD's preferred school, she will probably make it work, irrespective of the current school's challenges. That's a real positive.

PettsWoodParadise DH likes being a SAHD (I work full time) and part of the deal was that if she wanted this school then DH would have to get a job once she was at senior school to help pay for the fees.

I suspect the fact that your DH is a SAHD may go against you in your bursery application. I could be wrong but I would imagine they would expect both of you to be working unless your DH has a genuine reason for being unable to do so.

PettsWoodParadise is this SS Grammar in the Bexley and Bromley area by any chance?

The school could add 12+ and 13+ examinations like other areas to help fill the places.

I think I would let her go to the grammar - but still sit the exam for the independent. Then, start saving the money you would have paid towards the independent school for a year or more. Then, if you're right about the grammar - and hopefully you're not - you would have a decent amount towards the fees saved up.

Plus, if she moved at beginning of yr 8 or 9, say, you'll be paying for fewer years anyway, and hopefully you'll be able to get a place without the bursary.

And surely dh will want to work at least pt once DD is at secondary?

You won't known that you'll secure a bursary until they actually offer one. If they have a high number of bursary applicants, but can only afford to offer support to 3 or 4 pupils, others who have a low income may not be offered an award, and those where the family clearly has potential to increase income (like a SAHP by choice) will be bottom of the pile.

I am guessing that you are not going to get agreement from your DH for the independent in view of the points made above and his reluctance to change the status quo of being a SAHD. He might change his mind if the grammar is clearly not working for your DD. I would use the extra money and time your DD has to supplement school as required with EC and potentially tutoring. The independent is likely to have an entry point at age 13 and at sixth form so the decision could be reviewed after Y7 and Y10

Thanks for all the helpful comments. DH whilst a SAHD is also a carer for my disabled mother but it isn't 24/7 and more like a few hours a day and he could get a small job yes - he even has an offer of a part-time role staying open until Sept next year but it is very low paid due to having no qualifications. The Independent tell you likely bursary before you sit test to know if it is worth it. This can then be topped up with scholarships if DD did well.

The grammar is the only selective one for girls in Bromley and is a mile from our house. The one I liked was in neighbouring Bexley. Our local one is fiercely oversubscribed, about 1000 sat for 160 places so I know it is still well regarded despite its issues but I worry it is more the cache some people seek - getting into a school so oversubscribed rather than looking at the quality of education.

I think you shouldn't be bother about the independant school. As you have already got good choice of state school. And it sounds a big pressure that you need the bursary and you DH has to change to get a job. Financial pressure would make the family atmosphere bad, it is really not worth it .

I think either the superselective or the other good grammar, it should all be fine.

PettsWoodParadise I would suggest you read through this forum to see if any of the posts give you more details on what to expect from the grammar school.

I would also suggest you post about your specific concerns to see if any parents with DCs already in the school can give any advice.

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewforum.php?f=51

They have an indie section which you could post in to see if anyone can offer advice:

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewforum.php?f=31

If you DH did the low paid part-time role it would put you in a better position when applying for the bursary. What you will need to bear in mind is if your DH then decided to leave the job it could have an impact on the bursary in the future.

Are your choices only the SS and the indie? Are there no other non SS grammars you liked that she would qualify for?

I think I know both schools you are referring to and from what I've heard would also be worried about the SS in your position.

FWIW, I am a big believer in gut instinct, you know as a parent where your child will thrive, more than they possibly could at age 11.

Re the travel, my Y7 DS has a 40 min journey and he loves it!

Thanks Wiry. There were other choices as DD passed all three of the local grammar tests but now the CAF form is submitted and there is no reason to believe we won't get the first choice then then those further down the list don't stand a chance. There may be in-year places for the grammar in the neighbouring borough but I doubt it and we wouldn't be top of the list as once you pass it is based on distance. I have been following the SS and like what the interim head is doing but he isn't the same calibre as some of the heads I saw on other visits. I am not normally a worrier so when my instinct screams - and all for good reasons - but not good enough to dissuade DD and DH - then I worry even more.

Op - certainly in our area if you put a school say second and get offered the first there is no reason why you can't go on the waitlist for the second (or third, fourth). There was a lot of movement on waitlists in our area between 2 March and April.

I know of many people last year that did this, weren't close on distance, and held their nerve and got places at the grammars they wanted in April-June.

In our area if you get first choice - which is choice of DD and DH, then you can't go down the list. That makes sense to me and seems only fair. I just don't like our first choice! No pleasing some people is there!

If your instincts are strongly against the first choice SS plus you are unlikely to be able to change to another grammar and you can get an idea of the bursary before she takes the exam then IMO you should at least try the independent school option as you may be able to persuade your DH.

It would be mad to try an private school on bursary while you have a choice to go to a grammar school. And you DD is happy with that grammar school.

No matter how bad you feel about this school, I don't think it can be really that bad, as there are still lots of children want to get into this school. If it is so bad, I would think other parents would find it out as well.