Non denominational school - ds asked to curb his atheism in RE. Quietly seething.

[Piffle]

Last yr in yr 7 RE was world religions, a history of religious developement, balanced, well debated and sceptics were given equal floor time and embraced even.
now in yr 8 they focus heavily on Chrisitianity, had no issue at all as thought it was been done as a "history" type tpoic, not a We Must All Be Good Christians and Believe in God.
DS is a cynic, sceptic, and very dismissive of the god concept, being a scientist has only helped him along his path to purgatory.
He regularly challenges concepts in class, which last year was encouraged
the school does not hymns, prayers or anything
RE is COMPULSORY at GCSE at least as short course, which is also sticking in my throat as it means ds will have to drop a subject he really likes ...possibly.
So anyway enouh rambling
His RE teacher told him yesterday to keep his non Christian thoughts in his head.
Now he did wait until "any questions" session of the lesson. His questions were not offensive, related to the lesson etc
Am frankly baffled

Bang out of order IMO (the teacher I mean). Surely intelligent and appropriate questioning should be encouraged, whatever the topic?

maybe it was in his tone. A lot is, you know .

BTW non GCSE RE is compulsory in all secondary schools and does not cause pupils to lose an option. They only get 1 - 2 periods a fortnight.

Seems odd - even 20 or so years ago at a church school, when I was a lot like your ds, I never had any comments like that. Do you know what religion (if any) the RE teacher is? Also odd that RE is compulsory I would have thought (but have no kids at secondary level yet so don't really know how common that is at a non-church school...)

Hi, I'm doing a degree in this subject and hoping to do a PGCE after.

I am also a non Christian (not sure what I am LOL, rather like the Gnostic gospels atm )

I would ahve a chat with the teacher, clear up how accurate your son's story is- nto that he is lying but there are always two sides and as someone said, tone is everything. HOWEVER he should be allowed to make his points nd that should be encouraged: I am at Uni, and I do so rather vocally LOL!

You say he was allowed last year? that would make me speak to the teacher then, see what the change is.

I'd be furious. Would double check first to see what was actually said, then if it was confirmed, I'd be in to the head to complain. Would they dare tell children who beleive in Allah or Christ to keep their religious thoughts in their heads?

I have the same beliefs as your DS but I think he needs to respect other peoples beliefs (however bizarre they may be). Also explain to him that it is highly unlikely that his teacher will be able to answer questions as faith is so individual to each person and each religion.

Can he not opt out of RE - I'm sure when I was at school parents could request by letter that there children did not attend RE classes. I am shocked that he has to do it at GCSE level - I would not be happy with this.

I don't think the teacher was out of order.

Was his cynical dismissiveness over-powering his questioning, do you think?
"keep your non-Christian thoughts in your head" sounds both a bit of a lapse in encouraging students to ask pertinent questions, AND like the comments of an exapserated teacher!

I would keep a close watching brief, and then wait for parents evening. It's just the one subject, that he clarly isn't going to pursue at A level!

I'm not a secondary school parent yet, but I have worked in them, and going in to talk to one subject teacher about one incident sounds like quite a daunting task - I'm amazed at the ease with which people suggest this!

They were talking about the resurrection of Christ and it's burden of proof for Christians ie: why they believe it and why it forms a vital part of Christianity
DS simply asked why they only proof they used in class was the bible. He asked if there were any other non biblical texts he could research.
The RE teacher now - ds is taught by 2 teachers, one is the deputy head, who is a Christian, his other teacher a quite funky dude (ds's words) is not religious but a theologist of sorts I guess.
Twas he who embraced the sceptics last year.
I've spoken to teach as it happens and she has apologised and said she was having a bad day and several other boys were being disruptive, therefore she was at exasperation overload
FWIW I appreciate her honesty, although unprofessional IMO.
I did also question the usefulness of RE as a subject if boys who had no faith were not permitted to further their knowledge of the subject as it were.
DS is a pretty polite lad as it happens. Although if class was rabble who knows what tone he had to use..

Actually from ehat I have seen this lad would be ideally suited to study further in RE_ our main Lecturer (A PhD in Islam, BEd and another PhD in Theology) positively embraces any discussion of this sort; its the ones who can't ask questions that get left behind.

(Blu maybe you're right- I suppose I'm at school every other week with one thing or another it seems like a second nature to me these days)

So are you happy now that you've spoken to the teacher?

Yes and she had the good grace to say sorry to ds as well.
she did say actually that it is the kids who question the lessons who are best able to interpret the course work and gain best from it.
However ds's love lies in science/maths/art/tech/languages
history/geography and RE trail behind in desire, although he does well at them he does not enjoy them

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Teachers have bad days. She apologised to your ds and to you. That's good. I was AWFUL to some of my classes after my miscarriage. I apologised to them all (without a full explanation of course) and they were really very lovely about it.

R.E. itself is another issue. But, as has already been said, it is compulsory.

Piff, are you sure RE is compulsory at GCSE? Seems very odd for a non-denominational school. Round here a full GCSE is compulsory at the Catholic comp, and a half-GCSE is an option at non-denominational high school; at grammar it's just one of the Humanities options.

Very subjective subject, RE, but it sounds as if DS's teachers are as rational as they can be!

When you say non-denominational do you mean non-religious? Or is it a broadly Christian school albeit not tied to one particular denomination? If the latter it's probably the way they do things and you'll need to decide if it's important enough to you and your boy to mean him changing schools. If the former complain vociferously.

the school is totally areligious.
It's a high performing boys grammar
ds has to do a short course GCSE at the least.
Well it's the price you pay I guess
WE did establish prior to him going that RE was taught multi faith and without prejudice.
He has not been asked his faith - he would def put undecided Unless there is a God of Manga or MSN around?

'Fraid it is the law that every child at school must study some form of RE (unless parents choose to withdraw) and most schools do the short course because the kids have to study the subject anyway, so why not let them get something out of it, otherwise they can become very difficult to manage (why am I here, why do I have to do this? kind of attitude, which often resorts in them not working etc etc...) However, because of this legal requirement, it does mean that your son is not being denied another GCSE he could otherwise have done. The average RE short course class is one/ two hours a week - compared to 4 hours for a GCSE.

As for the exasperation, It probably is the case of a bad day, but it is a common trick for 'bright kids' to try and get out of doing work by asking difficult questions that they know cannot be answered - I'm not saying your son did this, but teaching RE can sometimes be a real battle to get them to stay on track and not let them ask questions as work avoidance, and if you've just had 6 of these ina row, then you can be a bit snappy.

As for the question itself, whilst valid it is really difficult to answer, there is so little info about who Jesus was outside of early Christian writings, it would be impossible to do - but there are other texts that can be used, that are not part of the gospels, say the gospels of Thomas and Mary - but this is really difficult to explain to a class of kids, especially when 29 of them usually are not interested!

Most schools though study philosophy and ethics at GCSE level, so would be doing questions like is euthanasia right or wrong? Abortion? Divorce? Under what circumstances? Whilst they also look at religious perspectives, to get a good grade students must have thought through their own opinions and made their own decisions - I think it is hard to deny the value of this!
HTH

"Or is it a broadly Christian school albeit not tied to one particular denomination? If the latter it's probably the way they do things and you'll need to decide if it's important enough to you and your boy to mean him changing schools. "
FWIW I totally disagree with that POV. No matter what the denomination of the school, to belittle someone else's beliefs and tell them to keep their "non-Christian thoughts in their head" is outrageous and repressive and the mark of a substandard teacher and an inadequate school.
Being a pupil at a religious school denotes the religious beliefs of the parents and not the child. He has the right to believe whatever he wishes and to express it (As long as it isn't offensive).
I am glad the teacher has apologised.

Piffle, I've come late to this thread, but I am surprised at your ds' teacher saying your ds's questions are 'unchristian'. I take it she is a Christian? Then she must be aware of the theology of John Spong, Don Cupitt and Anthony Freeman who do not believe in the Resurrection (in different ways - Spong has a different take from the other two) and who are Christians. It's a bit simplistic to say that all Christians believe in the Resurrection. I know a lot of Christians struggle with it, and there are different understandings as to what it means - do we take the story literally, as a group's unique experience of the spirit of Jesus or as myth? To say it is unchristian to ask sounds as though she believes Christianity to be an unquestioning, blind faith, which it absolutely isn't. And if those with doubt fall beyond its reach IHO then that is very intolerant.

It sounds like the teacher was just tired as happens to lots of us. I think my son who would have done RE but not GCSE, and doesn't believe in God had some really good debates in his lessons and the school loved all that controversy. In fact he did consider as an atheist reading theology at university.

R.E has to be taught from a Christian point of view under the national curriculum. I'm a teacher (not of R.E!) and frequently hear kids moaning about the Christian point of view, it has to be written in exams from a Christian view point.

It may be worth mentioning that you can disapply your son from the subject for religious reasons, i.e. being an athiest. I have been very tempted to do this for ds, but feel he does need to know about religions and ethics to gain a broader understanding of the world. However I feel very strongly that I would rather this was applied religion rather than having Christianity shoved down his throat. It really makes me furious, but as yet there is no other option.

Don't blame teacher for having an off day, decent of her to apologise.

I've been through atheism and agnosticism and paganism (brought up broadly CofE) and loved RS O-level - the opportunity to think about these things in depth, to understand the gnostic gospels so you can have an informed debate, was fantastic. Probably due to an inspired teacher. Shame your ds isn't getting the same out of it.

It's the end of a long term. I can imagine Piffle's son asking difficult questions every lesson, for which the teacher may not always have an answer. I think the comments like "its outrageous" don't take account of what it is like to be a teacher.

not only out of order, a very unchristian attitude imo. A teacher with any respect for faith at all would embrace questioning, doubt and disbelief.

worthy of complaint imo.

have now read on and realise that you've spoken to her and she has acknowledged that she was out of order. She was.