Should Alevel teachers have a degree in the subject?

[MitziKinsky]

I just presumed they would.

DS is in Y12, and assures me one of his physics teachers knows what they're doing. The other doesn't seem to have a clue, apparently, as he's usually a maths teacher. DS says he has a degree in Philosophy and Maths. (I'm presuming that's two different degrees )

Shouldn't A'level teachers have a degree in the subject or I'm I totally out of touch?

[BoboChic]

From a pupil's perspective it won't feel the same at all. But from a teacher's perspective (were the same person equally skilled as a teacher of mathematics and as a teacher of literature and language) it might.

[NewLife4Me]

I have a level 2 in Maths, no GCSE.
Unfortunately, I left teaching because I was expected to cover Advanced Maths for nearly the full year.
I wasn't qualified to teach many of the subjects and levels I was asked to.
It's disgusting tbh.
Yes, a teacher who is able doesn't necessarily need a degree in the subject but they shouldn't be made to teach a subject they have little or no knowledge about, unless of course they are covering for a day.

[noblegiraffe]

Doing it, yes. Teaching it, no.

Literature analysis, for one thing, is subjective. Algebra, not so much!

Literature requires discussion, thought, exchange of ideas, essay writing. Algebra requires exposition, querying, clarification then exercises which have a correct answer.

[BoboChic]

Proper literature analysis requires textual evidence for everything, noble. It's full of logic and justification!

[PurpleDaisies]

Literature analysis, for one thing, is subjective. Algebra, not so much!

This is why I love maths so much. I got asked to tutor someone for their English GCSE. It took me about four seconds of looking at a mark scheme for a piece of creative writing where the grade descriptors involved an overall impression of whether the use of metaphors felt natural or forced to convince me to stick to x = 2 is correct for 1 mark.

My first degree is physics and I do teach other science A levels but I think unless someone has really worked hard there is a limit on how far beyond your own area you should stray. I'll happily teach mechanics and most pure maths because I've done plenty of them during my degree but I wouldn't venture too far into the realms of further maths because it gets too scary. I know I wouldn't do a very good job without so much extra work it wouldn't be worth it for the money.

[Pandylion]

"When I left teaching and started applying for jobs I found jobs I couldn't apply for because I didn't have the right qualifications even though I had been teaching those qualifications"

Er, yes charis I think that amply demonstrates that in the private sector they're a lot more picky about qualifications than in the teaching sector, which is what we're discussing.

A family friend only got a C for English Literature & Language GCSE, so wasn't allowed to take either for A Level. They somehow got into university to do Media Studies and 6 years down the line she's now teaching English up to A Level!

I think this demonstrates that too often the teaching sector just has to make do with what they can get, sadly.

[notinminutenow]

DS is in Y12, and assures me one of his physics teachers knows what they're doing.

I'm sure that teacher is grateful for your son's assessment of their teaching practise!

[moonbells]

Reading this thread (and other similar ones previously) makes me want to ask people who aren't teachers why they aren't, or if there is anything that would make them become one?

I don't because I don't have the patience, I'd find marking tedious and even when I was at school I didn't suffer fools gladly so I doubt I'd cope with a roomful of bored schoolchildren. And yes, I'm a physicist, so it would be a challenge even for someone who was a teacher by vocation.

I was lucky at school to have maths and physics teachers who were degree-level and enthusiastic in their subjects. It makes such a difference even to those of us who actually want to study the subjects. Though even after three physics degrees and a large dollop of maths in my working life, I'd still be lost if someone wanted me to explain vector spaces... (A level further maths when I were a lass, don't know if they are in the current syllabus)

[Nohopeformethen]

Pandylion I don't think your example proves that at all. The person didn't do well in one exam as a teenager, them gained sufficient credits at university level to teach the subject. That demonstrates greater ability than an O level result.
I didn't study my teaching subject at all at school - that doesn't mean I was crap at it. My degree and postgrad suggest otherwise.

[Pandylion]

I don't agree nohopeformen . She didn't just do badly in one exam. It was quite heavy on coursework so she did consistently poorly over the two years of the GCSE syllabus, and only struggling to a grade C at the end of it all.

She somehow got into a university to study Media on the back of two low grade A Levels in General Studies and Communication Studies, and some sort of diploma in Photography.

In no way do I think that background equips her to now teach A Level English and I would not want her teaching my DCs.

[BoboChic]

My DD's last year's English teacher came top of the country, with five others, in English Literature GCSE. She was a terrific English teacher (she also had an English degree).

[Boleh]

My A-level maths teacher had a physics degree and admitted to us that he had got a C in his own maths A-Level. He was a pretty poor teacher and telling us he had got a worse grade than several of us aspired to did nothing to increase our respect for him. I ended up with a private tutor and an A.
Having done physics up to the 2nd year of my degree I actually now think that a full physics degree probably was more than adequate to teach a-level maths (they didn't offer further maths) but coupled with poor teaching it seriously reduced our confidence in him.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Back in the 70s my school published a list of all staff and where they had studied. OK, it didn't explicitly state that they had degrees (or diplomas for art, music, domestic science and PE) in the subjects they were teaching, but we knew from talking to them that this was the case. I suppose there were fewer options for female graduates then so most of them had little choice but to go into teaching.

It was much the same at my husband's school, though, from what he's told me.

Both direct grant schools - kind of hybrid between independent and grammar schools.

[Pandylion]

I can see why you'd lack much respect for a teacher who only managed a C at Maths A Level, if they were teaching it.

Our DC is at a selective school and the majority of the sixth form would be on target to get much higher grades than that.

It would be hard for you average teenager to have much academic respect for a teacher who wasn't able to get A Level grades anywhere near the ones they were able to get.

[noblegiraffe]

I tell my students (high achieving school) my grades (if they ask) and they ask me what on earth I'm doing working as a teacher!

[Pandylion]

And therein lies the problem noblegiraffe. Graduates with good degrees from good universities rarely gravitate toward teaching.

I think we're very fortunate that at our DC's selective school the teachers are highly qualified with degrees from good universities.

It's a very different story at other local schools.

[futureme]

Pandylion - Both at the grammar school and the 6th form college I taught at most of the teachers had good degrees from good universities. A lot of oxbridge/durham/london too.

I don't claim to be the best teacher there is though. I am amazing at studying and have several very good degrees. I forget very quickly though and find teaching quite stressful as I never meet the high/perfectionist expectations I put on myself.

[TalkinPeece]

I still do not understand why something I did 30 years ago defines who I am today.

DH is a qualified teacher (PGCE) the fact that he has a degree in one area does not reflect that he has avidly studied (and lectured on) two other subjects for 18 years.

[MrsUltracrepidarian]

If having a degree in a subject was a requirement state schools have to cease to offer Physics.

[cressetmama]

Gasp0de makes an important point. Back then (when I was at school too) the women's movement was just getting into its stride and as a result, the 1970s generation of teenage girls were among the first to challenge the conventional wisdom that if you were able enough to go to university (and only 5-8% of people did) you would probably become a teacher afterwards. Education is still the single largest employer of graduates IIRC but the doors to other professions have opened much wider. Most of the top name Oxbridge colleges were still closed to women as late as 1974!

[TalkinPeece]

Also at my schools a fair few of the women teachers were of an age where their fiances had died in WW2

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Lots of our teachers were married women who had come back to teaching after a few years off when their children were small. It was then (far less so now) a very family friendly job. My mum was a primary school teacher and did a bit of preparation in the evenings, none at the weekends that I can recall and very little school work in the holidays. It wasn't expected.

It's incredibly depressing that as a country we put so little priority on education that we don't pay enough to encourage good science and maths graduates to go into teaching. It can't just be money, though. My son went to an independent school from year 7. Every single person there teaching maths and science had a relevant degree, often more than one. They are paid a bit more than in state schools, but nothing like as much as they would get in industry or the city. They worked hard but I strongly suspect they had an easier life in some respects than many state school teachers. They could count on parental support (mostly) and the few behavioural problems were manageable.

[futureme]

They probably wouldn't have had the constant micromanaging and distrust thats part of the state sector.

[sassytheFIRST]

I wonder what the OP would make of me - teaching A level English lit and also Langlit at A level even though I "only" have a degree in American Studies. Even though I'm consistently acknowledged by my colleagues and students to be one of the best A level teachers in our large and talented dept.

[TalkinPeece]

Gasp0de
They are paid a bit more than in state schools
What ever makes you think that
and the few behavioural problems were manageable.
Because they do not let those kids in - leaving the state schools to deal with them ....

futureme
They probably wouldn't have had the constant micromanaging and distrust thats part of the state sector.
but they will have the massive personal pressure for grades knowing that they are out of a job if they do not hit target
many private schools are utterly brutal on that side of things