Eton

[Riversiderunner]

Our son is 8 (Year 4) and quite bright - not amazingly so, but pretty good. Best reader in his class, top set of maths, quite shy though, which holds him back. And appalling handwriting, but hopefully he's getting better.

He is currently at a good state primary. And I am wondering what his chances would be of getting into Eton.

Can anyone advise? I've got the Good Schools Guide and see they take some from state schools, though not many, and understand why that may be. I also know he'll need to do a couple of years post-primary before he goes to big school anyway.

I just wondered if I was mad thinking he might be able to, or if competition is so fierce that there's no way a child who hasn't been at a prep school can get in.

(I know quite a few OEs and I've got to say they're not exactly all of them the sharpest tools in the box. They're confident, charming, at ease, blah blah, but certainly not my cleverest friends, by a long chalk.)

On another note, would we be better off putting him into a private school for years 5 and 6 before he does the test Eton puts them through? Or should we leave him in his good and lovely state primary and hope that he does well in the test I think they offer for children from state schools.

If anyone has any thoughts I'd love to hear them!

Entrance (so I am told) has become a total crapshoot. Many many stunningly bright boys do not get in.

Needanadult ...

I second everything Dapplegrey said.

There may indeed be plenty of parents muttering post-pre-test expletives under their breath (or furiously beating down their prep HM's door ...) but that might be because they made assumptions.

And of course some stunningly bright children didn't get in. Perhaps they rabbit-headlit the interview? Or prompted caution or meh-ness in their HM's Report? Or didn't give the impression that they would thrive there?

It's quite wrong to suggest a clever all rounder shouldn't give it a try ...

Honestly, go for it - what have you to lose?

The admissions section of the Eton website couldn't be clearer. Do the research, watch the video, ring the admissions staff and ask questions. A clever all rounder should give it a go. I think maturity counts for a lot, leadership skills, having a relatively easy going nature, having a go at everything. "Stunningly bright boys" could be rubbish team players, one dimensional, unlikely to thrive in what is a super busy environment and one where the boy needs to hit the ground running and be super organised from the start. They want boys who will make the most of the opportunities - not just decline verbs and practice calculus in their spare time.....!

Harrow has introduced the ISEB pre test in year 6 and those that pass can then do the "Harrow" pre test in year 7. In fact many schools have introduced a pre test (where before they didn't have one) - Charterhouse and Radley to name two.

If you take the attitude that something is so hard that it's better not to even try it because you will almost certainly fail, then you are most certainly not Eton material!

Ah! Maybe I was thinking of Harrow regarding two pre tests. Embarrassed now!

Question, how many boys roughly get as far as sitting the CE for Eton but are not offered a place?

That's pretty much unheard of Need. I think all the people involved in admissions decisions rather pride themselves on only offering conditional places to boys who they are sure will walk CE with a reasonable degree of application.

There are always rumours about the "one boy a year" who fails to make his CE grade. It would be very bad news for the school preparing him because it shouldn't happen.

So a conditional place essentially means "a place".

Need by the time the boys sit the CE they will already have been offered a place. I think it has been a very long time since a boy has lost a place because they did badly in CE.

The assessment is done at 11, after which boys are either rejected or are offered a place conditional on passing CE when they are 13. There will also be a wait list.

In our day there were about 400 boys taking the assessment, competing for 125 places. They do two assessments per year.

thats good to know its really very rare to fail CE for Eton.... Don't St Pauls & Westminster have a fairly significant number who do? (Significant as in 10 or so rather than most years none.)

Need - I'm curious to know what/whose experience your previous opinion was based upon ...

Do it! But be low key with DS.
Our DC aced the SPS/Westminster tests - we were happy with the outcome.
DS2 recently came back from staying at Eton for was few days and sai d he would like to board.
Regretting now not having at least given the opportunity.
I think DS2 would have thrived there, but we opted for the same as his bro'.

All the prep schools will get their boys to do mocks (and most do mock mocks too). If a boy doesn't make the grades at his mocks, their headmaster should be ringing alarm bells with Eton at that time - and look for an alternative school then.

If he scuffs his CE exams as he was unwell or had is right arm in plaster etc, then his headmaster would then be able to provide his mock papers as evidence that he was otherwise on track.

If a headmaster presents a boy for CE who was clearly never going to make the grade, I suspect his chances of getting further boys into Eton would be severely jeopardised....

I have heard a certain member of our royal family had to defer his entry for a year....

But MidLife a boy who was clearly never going to make the grade wouldn't have got through the yr6 pre-test, so he would have no opportunity to sit CE in yr8 for that particular school.

The pre-test is a measure of aptitude. CE requires some preparation and there is no scope for complacency in Yrs 7 and 8!

I agree that any boy who gets through the pre-test in yr 6 has the potential to make the grade....but Eton doesn't want clever slackers!

Who said anything about complacency?

The admissions people are very clear - no one who passes the pre-test is likely to fail CE. (That assumes steady work and reliable teaching over the intervening two years.)

(Though I'm sure if a boy with a conditional offer seemed for some reason to be going off-track it would be picked up long before CE and he probably wouldn't take it.)

Gruach
DH visited Eton 2 years ago, plus I've been talking to parents IRL who are either applying or were interested in applying but did not. We are not applying, I should point out. I was not told about Eton moving to 2 pre-tests by another parent, I think I may have read that about another school and misremembered it as being Eton. When I referred to bright DS not getting in, I do of course realise there are factors involved other than academic performance and that references can be inadequate or the child fluffs up on the day. The parents I spoke to are disheartened by the increasingly large number of excellent applicants and by watching many of them fail to get in. Some of them felt that the admissions had become less transparent and a bit more arbitrary because of the increasing need to whittle down a massive pool of candidates.

I have heard similar opinions expressed about St Pauls - parents saying that DC appears to fulfil all the criteria but that they don't think they'll get a place as there are "too many children applying nowadays". One who was talking about St Pauls said "I wish Winchester wasn't so far away, they have far fewer applicants per place". No idea if that's true, but seems plausible.

I really didn't think this view was very unusual? Aren't an awful lot of people you know finding London admissions nowadays a nightmare?

Needanadult Winchester unlike SPS and Eton have a much longer and more personal pre testing/interview process lasting about 1 1/2 to 2 hours. It's carried out by the individual HM of the house you've registered your DS. He decides whether 1. you're suitable for Winchester and 2. whether or not he want your DS in his house. This fairly obviously means that they have to restrict the numbers, each house has about 12 boys in each year and we were told (a long time ago now) that approximately 30 are interviewed. A boy cannot be registered until he is 8 yrs old.
We looked at Eton many years ago for DS2 one of the many reasons we didn't choose it was because I didn't like the admissions process which I felt was very impersonal, a boy only had 10 minutes to shine in an interview and a lot of emphasis was placed on the computer generated test, and a decision whether or not to take a boy seemed to being made by a committee. In sharp contrast the HMs at Winchester have sole autonomy over the decision as to whether to take a boy or not, the longish and very informal interview means they can get a good picture of a boy and can go on their gut instinct; "I like this boy, I think he will thrive here".
Obviously I understand why SPS and Eton interview in the way that they do (DS2 got offered a place at SPS) and can see that by not capping the number of applicants at such a low number that more boys are given a chance to go which is a positive. But for us the very personal nature of the Winchester admissions process was a reflection of the school general ethos and approach to both boys and parents, when we combined this with our other experiences of the school we felt that it was an ethos that best suited us as a family.

The parents I spoke to are disheartened by the increasingly large number of excellent applicants ...

Oh, the layers of meaning ...

I daresay some interested observers might feel disinclined to empathise with disappointed London parents (on this particular issue). Not least because some of those who do (did) think they have a God-given right to a place might display a less than gracious attitude towards anyone they don't see in their mirror who "takes that place away".

Gruach

They've been trying for a while now to extend the intake beyond that of the big name Home Counties preps. I guess that if you sent your DS to one of those schools expressly to get to Eton, you may be noticing a difference these last few years - although a goodly number of boys from those schools still go each year.

"The parents I spoke to are disheartened by the increasingly large number of excellent applicants............One who was talking about St Pauls said "I wish Winchester wasn't so far away, they have far fewer applicants per place"

As Tim Vine said about graffiti in multi story car parks , this is just wrong on so many levels.

Gruach - I am a London parent and I feel disinclined to empathise.

Gruach
That's not what it's about for a lot of people. It's about being put off applying to a school with eg 10 applicants per place and preferring to apply for more of a 'safe choice' school with slightly less competition for a place. What's wrong with that? As HappyGardening mentioned, if Winchester cap lists at 30 for 12 places, why would it be unreasonable for a parent to think that trying to get on the list for a nearly 1 in 2 chance of a place was better than going for Eton where numbers are greater? (Though I do understand Winchester set the bar higher academically.)

Have you not seen that large numbers of London parents are now choosing to move house to use schools out of London (clearly property prices are a factor too) or use non London area boarding schools because of the massive pressure of an admission system where people feel they must buy many hours of tutoring for DC to stand a chance because the competition is so great? Even some of the fairly mediocre London schools are now very hard to get in to in comparison to some very good country ones. The views I've heard on Eton are another facet of this, not of feeling entitled to a place.

Happy Gardening

I can totally understand why you chose Winchester. I've seen you post before and you seem very happy with it? :-)

It is not surprising that parents of boys who are currently at Eton think the admissions process is exceptionally good at spotting the boys who will thrive at the school. My own observation of watching many (ie 30-40 or more) boys go through the process over the last few years is that the admissions staff often makes what seem to be odd decisions. I have no idea what the pre-test is meant to capture, but I regularly see boys who I know to be very bright, personable, all-rounders turned down and boys who are intensely coached in various ways but who are not as bright, as personable or as well-rounded be offered places. The Eton process, in my observation, is as flawed as that of most other schools. For every boy who is accepted, there is at least another who would have been just as successful, just as happy, just as "contributing to the community", etc. It is a fantastic school and any boy who wishes to board would be lucky to be offered a place -- but the key would is, indeed, "lucky".

Tippie
I agree with you, but I would imagine at Eton you need to be more lucky than at some others just because of the numbers.

tippicanoe when we went on the Eton guided tours for prospective pupils (admittedly over 7yrs ago now) they made it very clear that they didn't want those who came in the top 10% of their computer generated test. My DH (a dyed in the wool super bright loose canon) spent a long time listening and going over the admissions criteria with various members of staff and he was very clearly given the impression that super bright loose canons were not wanted he would say that this is not surprising as just like saints some loose canons are so hard to live with.
Having said this it is inevitable that all schools and let's not forget universities and employers make odd decisions, a ridicuously short interview and a computer generated test inevitably suits some more than others and I wonder if they do miss some excellent candidates but I suppose if your spoils for choice it doesn't really matter.
Needanadult yes we are very happy with Winchester, we've now only got months to go before its all over but my DS was saying only the other day that he wouldn't have wanted to have gone anywhere else. It's not perfect of course and I'm sure some could find its ways irritating, but for me one of the best things aside from the incredible pastoral care and wonderful broad curriculum is that it's still not corporate yet, the boys really can be themselves, there's a new head arriving next September it will be interesting to see what he does.

"That's not what it's about for a lot of people. It's about being put off applying to a school with eg 10 applicants per place and preferring to apply for more of a 'safe choice' school with slightly less competition for a place. What's wrong with that? As HappyGardening mentioned, if Winchester cap lists at 30 for 12 places, why would it be unreasonable for a parent to think that trying to get on the list for a nearly 1 in 2 chance of a place was better than going for Eton where numbers are greater?"

Nothing would be wrong with that - although I suspect the applications per acceptances / successful applicants is a little more nuanced than the bald numbers would imply. (caveat - I have no idea of the overall/ realistic applicants per place at various schools - just taking what you've said at face value)

If your London friends like Winchester - then apply to Winchester if they think it is easier - it's just down the M3 - it's not the moon ffs

OP - unless the rather unattractive chap whom you snogged is back on the teaching staff (which might lead to stressful parents' evenings ) have a look at W. I am biased - I think it is a great school. That said, I also think Eton is a great school.