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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

MFL at secondary level, is this normal?

147 replies

MidnightVelvetthe3rd · 30/09/2015 13:59

Just looking round state secondary schools now. One school we have visited just offers French as a MFL, is this normal or do most schools offer more than 1 language? I think I thought that most schools offer 2 so was surprised.... but I have no experience

OP posts:
roamer2 · 30/09/2015 14:14

My limited experience would suggest that the schools with the best results (which may reflect their higher ability intake) do more languages

Contraryish · 30/09/2015 14:16

Our school specialises in MFL and offers French in year 7 and another language in year 8, with at least one language compulsory to GCSE level.

Theonethatgotaway772 · 30/09/2015 14:16

My dcs school offer French to everyone and Spanish from year eight top set only.

Icouldbeknitting · 30/09/2015 14:56

We were asked to indicate a preference for French or German before DS started in Y7 (the school has an engineering specialism). I haven't worked out who it is that's getting the Mandarin tuition, I know there is some now but it passed DS by.

Moominmammacat · 30/09/2015 16:01

Mine were at a specialist language school ... French, German or Spanish in Y7 (no choice), choice of other two in Y8, then twilight Latin, Mandarin, Japanese and Italian. Think it was compulsory to do two languages. One of mine did three languages and it wasn't particularly onerous at GCSE.

Anotherusername1 · 30/09/2015 17:08

At my son's state comprehensive, the year 7s are allocated a language (you can't choose, although it may be that you really really wanted a particular language because say your family came from that country they might accommodate). It will be one of either French, German or Spanish and they will do that all the way to GCSE.

In year 8 some of the kids do twilight Mandarin. I think they can choose to do it. There is also an Italian club.

It used to be the case that the most "talented linguists" could then do another language from year 8 but that has now changed to year 9 but that was a late change, they had said that the kids would only be able to do one language however talented they were. Because of that, I'd taken matters into my own hands and my son is doing Spanish at school and German via the online course Wolsey Hall offers, usually for home-schooled kids, but it works for him too. I'm hoping he'll be able to pick German up at school in year 10, but if not he can carry on with the Wolsey Hall option.

The school doesn't have a sixth form and the local sixth form college only offers Spanish for beginners, so if you only have one GCSE language and that is Spanish, you can't do any other A level languages. As my son's interests lie in languages (he's good at English as well) I wanted to keep his options open. I also speak German myself so can practice with him, I don't speak Spanish sadly.

Anotherusername1 · 30/09/2015 17:09

I should have said our local sixth form also offers French and German A levels, but not from beginner level.

Sadik · 30/09/2015 17:10

Is it a smaller school? DD's school offers french only, I think they just didn't have the numbers to make two MFLs viable. I don't think it's the end of the world, most seem to continue with french to GCSE and they get decent results.

GinandJag · 30/09/2015 17:11

My DDs' school does Frence from Year 7, German from Year 8, Spanish from Year 10 and Italian in the sixth form. They also do Latin in 7/8/9, and everyone has to take at least one MFL for GCSE.

PettsWoodParadise · 30/09/2015 21:10

I've been looking at secondary schools for DD and found generally the smaller schools (4 forms) offer one or two languages, but the larger schools with (6 or 7 forms) offer up to 4 languages. There will be exceptions of course but that has been my general experience. DD has done French all the way through primary plus a year each of Spanish, German, Latin, Mandarin and she loves them all - except French! Hmm. We are therefore keen for her to be able to continue with a good choice of languages.

roguedad · 30/09/2015 21:48

I'd steer well clear of a school that thinks that one language is a remotely adequate offering, as it suggests a clear failure of both priorities and academic focus. I moved my son away from an independent school that only did two, in large measure because of that, to one that offers French, German, Spanish and Mandarin. A comprehensive we were keen on with a language speciality offered French, German and Spanish, with "Twilight" courses in Russian, Italian and Mandarin.

Ripeningapples · 01/10/2015 08:06

In London in 2009 we only found two girls schools offering three single sciences two MFL and Latin. They were both church schools. Excluding the highly selective grammars. DD got into one of the schools as it was hitting a downward spiral.

It's a pretty poor show and I have a feeling things are getting worse and slipping back into a seconds mod culture with large schools where one half does BTECs, etc, with that half possibly forever expanding in the weaker schools.

What we may end up with by stealth is a weaker two tier system, divided more than ever by leafy catchments than ever existed under the old grammar system.

Excellence for all would be great. Excellence for none is abysmal, excellence for some was was a great deal better than nothing.

Sadik · 01/10/2015 08:23

roguedad, I'm guessing you don't live in a rural area! To be fair, they're already taking 2 more GCSEs than English dc (Welsh lang and lit) which knocks down the available option times. Add that to a 4 form entry, and I think there's sense in focusing on teaching one MFL really well with good numbers.

IMO, since it's very hard to predict what languages you'll need in your working life, I think in many ways the knowledge of how language works and the confidence that you can learn if needed is what's really important. I say this as someone who put lots of effort into German as a second MFL, has never used it at all, and have since learnt 2 other languages as an adult when needed.

Blu · 01/10/2015 08:49

DC' London Comp offers a choice of two MFL in Yr 7 and then those with aptitude can add a second in Yr 8. Both can be done at GCSE.

The school does 3 individual sciences at GCSE, too.

Latin as an extra curricular.

MrsUltracrepidarian · 01/10/2015 08:53

many ways the knowledge of how language works and the confidence
Exactly.
I am a MFL teacher.
Definitely encourage all DC to a MFL GCSE. The specific language doesn't matter because you won't learn anything like enough at GCSE to be 'useful' in later life anyway - it is just another indicator of the ability to master a different skill set at the same time doing several other subjects/balancing workload. ( Mandarin is a glossy con to get parents to apply to a school - no way can a GCSE set you up to manage business negotiation in China Grin).

ifonly4 · 01/10/2015 09:58

DC's school offers French to all (unless they are struggling with English and need extra help), then a choice of Mandarin or Spanish. German can be done as extracurricular.

AFewGoodWomen · 01/10/2015 11:51

What is twilight Latin?

Anotherusername1 · 01/10/2015 11:57

After-school class.

My son's school offers three separate sciences to those who have the ability and inclination, the rest do double science (or Science and Additional Science I think).

Original poster
MidnightVelvetthe3rd · 01/10/2015 14:16

Thanks all, I did French all the way to A Level & did work experience in France but probably could only scrape by now :)

Its very interesting hearing what happens with you all, as some of you said the school that offered 1 language is Ofsted Requires Improvements & has a terrible reputation, we looked around the school & found that it appears to be failing everything academically.

Off to see 1 tonight that offers Mandarin as a twilight class, I shall ask how many MFL they offer to GCSE level. Its a brand new school, first intake was last month & its only 120 intake per year so the correlation between & the size of the school & the options of languages is interesting :)

OP posts:
roguedad · 01/10/2015 19:52

Sadik - I live in rural West Oxfordshire, and the outstanding MFL provision I mentioned is at the Cotswold School. I agree that mastery of one language is certainly a gateway to how a very small number of closely-related others work, but I do not find it credible to suggest that studying French is a good preparation for studying Chinese or Arabic. But kids also deserve a choice from those that would be more relevant perhaps to modern business (German, Chinese perhaps) vs those that might provide access to some loved literature (French), according to their interests. Welsh schools have a special role to play so if resources are taking up providing access to both, and any resource-limited school is doing a good job if it does one or two well. The argument that you cannot do enough at GCSE in Mandarin to work properly in Chinese is utterly vacuous as a reason for not offering it. You need to be able to get to GCSE level before you get to a higher level - it it's not available to GCSE how the hell are you supposed to learn it properly further along? GCSE maths these says is so dumbed down it's barely sufficient for modern life, is that a reason for not offering it?

Sadik · 01/10/2015 20:34

I think the problem here is simply school size - it's just such a scattered population. Add that to limited option choices - dd will have either one or two option blocks in addition to French - and you can see why the numbers just don't add up. I'm sure Cardiff / Swansea schools offer more choices!

Sadik · 01/10/2015 20:36

I just looked and the Cotswold school website says they have 1200 pupils! Not surprised they can offer lots of languages . . . DD's school has about 550 including 6th form.

BackforGood · 01/10/2015 23:43

Fairly common around here.
Mind, ds started at one that offered both French and German (the fact there was a 2nd language was def. a positive on our list). After a year of German in Yr8, the German teacher left and was never replaced - so it became another school that only taught 1 MFL. Just so you keep in mind things can change in any of the schools, so remember to look at a whole list of comparisons and tot up the pros and cons, rather than basing it all on one thing Smile
dds' school - same size as ds's - offers French, German and Spanish, so I don't think it's all to do with the size of intake.

Millymollymama · 02/10/2015 10:40

I agree that it is likely to be a non academic school that cannot attract MFL teachers and is the one that will only offer one language. There is a huge problem with this!

Children who are good at MFL, and want to do it at university, can then only offer, usually, 1 MFL language at A level. This is poor preparation for an MFL degree. There has been limited opportunity for the child to prove he/she is good at languages. The language then just becomes an "add on" to other A levels and some MFLs are not taught ab initio at degree level. You must have the A level. Just doing one language at A level prevents joint honours in two languages that have been studied at A level, which a lot of students like to do. Eg, French and German, German and Spanish etc.

Yes, more languages should be offered. No wonder MFL courses at universities struggle to get state educated students if this is what happens. It definitely happens in my neice's school. Last year, for French, she had 5 different teachers. She is only taught French and was offered no other option. They are failing any child who is a potential linguist. It is disgraceful.

Millymollymama · 02/10/2015 10:43

I am surprised that a state school with 550 pupils including 6th form is financially viable! Is this a state school? At my DD's independent school, 4 languages are offered with 420 pupils. Bigger state schools usually do offer more than one language and 1200 is not big. I know another school in West Oxfordshire which is circa 2000 and serves a rural area.