Starting Year 13 - September 2015

[hellsbells99]

Welcome to Year 13!
Their final year of school;
Applying for university/college/work/apprenticeships;
A year of 18th birthday parties;
Going to their first nightclub (unless they already have fake ID!);
The year they turn into adults!

DD2 has been back at school for 3 days and has lots of work already.

Brioche - Oxford make it clear that they do accept a single A level in maths www.maths.ox.ac.uk/study-here/undergraduate-study/how-apply/single-level
It is disappointing that Warwick are not more inclusive (not for my DD as she doesn't want to apply there and is not applying for a pure maths course so irrelevant)

I know they say that hellsbells but we we were looking at admissions stats which I can't remember now were oxford or Cambridge and in that year every single offeree had a2 in FM.I could try and find the link again.Warwick is generally tho ught to be second only to Cambridge now in terms of maths

I would imagine that without Further Maths, STEP papers (used for Cambridge and Warwick) would be almost impossible. The syllabus for the Oxford entrance paper is based on the single Maths A Level and so shouldn't preclude those not studying Further Maths.

I have a DC at Warwick doing Maths. It does seem to be the insurance option for a lot of Cambridge offer holders who miss the STEP grades.
When we looked at universities those who did not insist on FM made it clear that the students would be covering the FM material in their first year. Indeed a friend of his has just finished his first year at one of those universities and has done just that.
He did do FM at college and self studied some extra modules. The course at Warwick is very fast and challenging. He says there were quite a lot who dropped out in the first term, moving to less demanding maths related courses or Physics.
As to being inclusive, it may be that they direct single maths applicants to other courses? Perhaps if they admitted students without FM they would need to modify the course for them or lay on the kind of support mentioned in the Oxford link? The danger is that if they watered down the Maths course it may lose appeal to the best and brightest and they would go elsewhere.

When I was doing my A levels in the mid 80s, it was not unusual for state school kids to self study further maths with a bit of input from teachers in their free periods/lunchtimes/after school. That's how I did it - I had 2 45 min sessions a week, one for pure and one for applied, one was at lunchtime and one was after school in L6 (because the teachers' free periods clashed with music A level classes and there was only one group doing music). In U6 I had my 2 sessions in school time because the teachers' free periods did not clash with my other subjects. I had to do an awful lot on my own. Similarly with preparation for the Cambridge entrance exam - they got me past papers to practice on and they marked the papers for me, but that was that - I had to understand where I'd gone wrong etc by myself because their free time was already being used for the FM sessions (I wasn't the only person doing FM there were 3 of us - I was the only person who did Cambridge entrance though). I was actually pretty lucky though, the LEA wanted all the FM people in the borough to do A levels at one centre, which didn't offer music A level. My school bent over backwards to enable the 3 of us to stay there and do FM, the final grades were 3As and we all got into our first choice unis to do maths. Many of the state school kids I met when I got to Cambridge had similar stories - twilight sessions, self study etc. I think it was probably much easier to do FM like that than it would have been to do either history or music. These days many state schools offer FM as standard (though not all) and the number offering music is plummeting. I'm not sure this represents an improvement in provision for state school kids, to be honest.

LIZS - have posted on your other thread re DSA

MrsUltracrepidarian Bristol say under their 'Undergraduate admissions principles and procedures' section that ' Different levels of offer may be made to applicants from schools/colleges in the lower 40% nationally on one of a range of measures, to reflect individual circumstances or to send an encouraging signal to specific applicants. They are not made on the basis of the educational sector from which the applicant is applying. There are no quotas or targets for different types of school or college.'

In Section 2.9 of the undergraduate admissions statement for Maths you can click for a list of schools which come under this category. I don't know whether the same list is used by different unis/depts.

Like UoB I did A levels in the 80s and my maths provision was appalling - my Maths teacher was so busy doing pastoral work he was rarely there ( later left he school to a police Officer...)
On my main subject - MFL - DC have much better opportunity now with t'Interweb to access TL material - in my day we couldn't even get a MFL newspaper, let alone books/TV progs/fims/podcasts etc.
Any child now can access all that - when I was doing A level it would only have been those with parents who could fund holidays/holiday home abroad that would have the chance for authentic material.
But even with resources available today to any child with access to the internet (eg everyone in the UK at home/school/library) at the click of a mouse, I don't see many with the initiative to do that, or even the inclination to follow up those they are told about by their teachers.

Utred, DS has been surprised at how many of his peers have self-studied AS FM. (Required for his economics degree.) The upside is that the self-study skills acquired are really useful at University level. The downside is that A2 FM is slightly assumed and the A2 syllabus is covered very fast.

That said I agree that demanding A2 FM, even if not offered by the school, is quite a big ask. Could they nt offer a two week course as an alternative to freshers to help able students with only AS FM?

Could they not offer a two week course as an alternative to freshers to help able students with only AS FM?

A two week course is so short that it wouldn't be much better than covering FM material in the first semester. (Some universities which are in the top 10 but can't insist on FM are considering doing this however.)

Besides, who would pay for it? Universities don't have the spare money to put on extra courses for free and students don't have the money to pay for tuition/maintenance. The universities which are considering such courses will need to get enough international students to come, to subsidise low fees/accommodation costs for home students.

Warwick is generally thought to be second only to Cambridge now in terms of maths.

You're a bit out of date here. Oxford is not behind Cambridge, in research or teaching. (I have no connection to Oxford) Moreover Warwick is very strong in some areas of maths but has gaps in others. I don't think it is above Imperial or UCL, even if its entrance standards are a teeny bit higher.

(Entrance standards reflect popularity rather than quality. Durham has high entrance grades for maths because Durham is considered a top university but actually Durham is consistently down in the 10-20 position in research league tables for maths.)

I would imagine that without Further Maths, STEP papers (used for Cambridge and Warwick) would be almost impossible.

Warwick accept a grade 1/2 in any STEP paper. The first STEP paper only requires single Maths. Cambridge usually require STEP grades 1+ in the second and third papers, which do require further Maths.

As a poster pointed above, dropping the requirements for further maths would dumb down the courses. I think the focus should instead be on why there is not enough funding for FM at sixth forms, and not more arrangements between colleges about sharing the teaching of FM.

By the way in reality there are relatively few sixth forms which don't offer FM.
The real problem is that students from "weaker" schools don't choose to take it, and are often advised they don't need it. In particular, only around 25% of those taking FM are female, while the gender split of single maths is almost equal. Not taking FM excludes women from top degrees in STEM. Nationally about 40% of maths students are female, so it is not like women don't want to study maths at university. Many of them only find out too late that they should have taken FM to keep open the options of the top half dozen universities.

For most pupils doing GCSEs at schools with a sixth form which don't teach FM A level is n't there the the option to move to a sixth form or college where they do offer it? Or are there cities or parts of the country where that is not possible?

That's it SAQ gone off after much discussion and debate.Its all in the hands of the gods now.Playing the waiting game....

DD1 hasn't done her SAQ yet. The person who is acting as her support on the whole applications process has to ensure all the other Oxbridge and medic people get their UCAS forms in first. Which is fair, she has had far more of his time than anyone else (because of her issues and also because conservatoire application was a learning curve for them as much as for her).

disquisitiones, an observation only, but double maths take up in selective London private schools seems to vary a lot. And it does not seem to be just a girl/boy thing. DS's school always had a huge take up, 70 or more, yet he know others at comparable schools who were in a single small class of maybe 7 or 8. And some who then were either having to select courses which did not need the double or taking a gap year to add subjects they found they needed. It seemed strange, given many of these schools have pupils taking 4 A levels as a matter of course, and all were capable of teaching the subject well.

It is almost as if Further Maths is considered to require a huge brain. DS himself thought long and hard about taking it, yet ended up with an A*. What helped for us was some good advice that if he wanted to take a course that required maths he should learn as much as he could at school, as it is much harder to play catch up in a lecture room than in a classroom.

DD has been the go ahead to submit her PS. Yay!

It is almost as if Further Maths is considered to require a huge brain.
Yes, at DC's large sixth form college there are several classes of FM. However it's considered to be only for the brave.
The do AQA which covers all the Maths modules in Y12 and all the FM modules in Y13. DS1 did very well in Maths but there were many in his cohort who did not, and would undoubtedly have done better sticking to just A level Maths. My feeling is that it's not the teaching of the A level that's at fault, it's the inadequate preparation by the Maths GCSE. Probably all this will change with the new exam curriculum.
DS2 chose not to do FM because he knew he didn't want to do a Maths degree. He has, I think, enjoyed his Maths A level because the slower pace compared with the FM course suited him.

School submitted DS1's form last night, about ten, and he had an acknowledgement from Glasgow this morning. Feels real now!

Stalled here as ds's course tutor has been signed off sick for 4 weeks and hasn't yet written the reference or approved the ps. Ds emailed his ps to the careers lady to get an opinion but hasn't had a reply and is thinking of asking one of his other lecturers to do the reference but they have no HE experience with so few students choosing the uni pathway. He's now wondering if it may be better just to sit on it until the course tutor returns and I'm beginning to think that may be the only option assuming its not long term sick leave.

UhtredOfBebbanburg 'D1 hasn't done her SAQ yet. The person who is acting as her support on the whole applications process has to ensure all the other Oxbridge and medic people get their UCAS forms in first

.So does the SAQ goes via the school like the UCAS form? DD was under teh impression that it went straight to Cambridge (mind you that means nothing, she has form or getting the wrong end of the stick!)

eatyourveg that is so annoying!!

I don't think it goes via the school but she wants to talk it through with her support person before she pushes the button. Belt and braces.

eatyourveg
I would have thought that even a person signed off sick could do that - not exactly onerous, surely?.
It is a worry the way schools go the wire on these things.

Possibly MrsUltracrepidarian but it depends on why he is off and I would be wary of him doing it from home without any access to the college system to see ds's eILP. Not going for the early deadline so no immediate rush but ds had hoped to get everything finished for half term.

DS sent off SAQ. Didn't ask for any advice from school just did it himself. None of us really had any idea what he should put in the PS section. Just wait and see.

DDs not planning on putting anything in the ps section of the SAQ, she reckons it's all in her original PS, the schools reference and the extenuating circumstances form. I'm hoping that's not a terrible idea!

DS said that he'd searched a bit online & come across people who hadn't put anything & still got interviews. He didn't put much really - no point in just putting a load of waffle just to fill space. College got back to him & said will probably hear if he's got an interview second week in November.