ds1 (yr 11 in Sept) is thinking medicine... Can I pick your brains please A levels or Int Bacc??

[Ingles2]

ds1 is at a state grammar, is top 5% and G&T for a number of subjects. He is interested in Medicine at Cambridge and looking to the future we are wondering about the best route.. I assumed he'd stick with A levels, {sciences and maths) but we also have the choice of a local grammar doing international bacc. I know very little about this, is this the option to take these days? or is it more for people who would like to keep their options open? Thanks in advance

Best to ask the IB provider on their experiences sending students off to medicine - how many have done it, what grades they were asked for, what subjects, where they went. Difficulties they faced etc. Also how long have the school been offering the IB.

I did it, decades ago. It was harder than the A level route (but rarer then). I only really appreciate my broader education now I have some leisure (early retirement) to use my humanities/languages/literature and take them further. I think it made me a better balanced doctor but that isn't anything anyone else in the profession is likely to give me credit for (sometimes a narrow-minded profession!).

Good Luck with the decision making process. I remember agonising over this with my parents just after my O level results.

Thinking of a recent thread by uni staff and academics, could you start by looking at where he wants to study medicine and working backwards from their requirements?

Go onto the The Student Room. The Medicine section is brilliant and tells you what each uni uses for admissions. This is a good place to start :
www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Applying_to_Medical_School_using_your_Strengths
For Cambridge he will need very strong GCSEs -9A*s- but for other medical schools the UKCAT or AS levels are more important.
Good luck

Which are his best subjects OP? For the A level route most pupils take 4 subjects. The key subject for medicine is actually Chemistry but most will take Biology as well and either Maths or Physics as the 3rd subject in the second year. The 4th subject, which is usually dropped at the end of the first year can either be another Science (or further Maths) or a complementary subject e.g. an essay subject such as History or English Lit.
For the IB route you can only take 2 Science subjects plus Maths so cannot do all 3 Sciences. You also need to take English and one other subject either MFL or Arts or Social Science. You have to study all these subjects for 2 years but there are 2 levels Higher and Standard. For Medicine you would need the Higher level Chemistry.
The IB is therefore better suited to students who are good all rounders. As it's an international qualification, it may also open doors to universities overseas (know someone who went to uni in Australia but not for medicine) or who would like to work overseas in the future.
You can search for more details on the IB website www.ibo.org/en/programmes/diploma-programme.
Hope this helps

I think that the decision is more than merely "A Levels or IB?" Medicine is very competitive to get into, medicine at Oxbridge even more so. States the blindingly obvious.
Is it worth moving? Does he actually dislike his current school? If he moves to somewhere else then he has to get used to different teachers, different classmates, different environs, different ways of doing things. The teachers will have only twelve months to get to know him before writing insightful references. Will he be top of the heap for work experience opportunities or being entered into competitions or representing the school.
Is moving really worth all that upset? It's hard enough already, why throw in extra complications.

I also think that understanding the level of competition here is the first step. Do NOT be guided by what the university says is their standard offer as this is much lower than the overall standard of competing applicants, and you need to aim much higher to be in the game. You might find this table helpful

www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings?o=Entry+Standards&s=Medicine

The points are more easily calibrated to A levels, but the average points of successful applicants is generally indicative of kids doing 4 or 5 A levels and getting good grades. St George's had the second lowest average score of successful applicants at 482 points - that is 4As at A level or AAAB. Cambridge has 627 - I make that better than AAAAA. Do not even think of dropping from 4 to 3 before an offer has been received. You need 4 or 5 or the IB equivalent to be really sure of being in the game for consideration. If an offer asks for grades in just 3 subjects then after that you can think what is best, likewise with IB points. There is a common misconception that 4 dropping to 3 at the end if first year 6th is good enough - it most certainly is not.

With medicine tutors also look for other skills and character issues beside the academic. The breadth of the IB is sometimes thought to be a positive in this respect, but I reckon that understanding the grim reality of life in an old people's home by helping out during the summer, or perhaps in a hospital or GP surgery is a huge plus. So I'd advise starting 5 A levels and doing the work experience.

Please read the Student Room. It's a forum for actual candidates and has a great section where people post their actual grades that got them into medical school. You need 3 A levels as they only look at 3 - they really do ignore any more. It is possible to become a Dr with good, but not perfect, GCSEs (6As quite common, but I know someone this year who has a place with 4A, 4B & 1C). But 3As at A level is the standard offer for anywhere but Oxbridge (A*,A,A). It is important to apply to those Universities that suit you. Some use GCSEs, some use UKCAT, some use the Personal statement (some tell you they will never read it !). And work experience is more essential at some than others (& quality beats quantity - it's what you learned not what you did). It is a stressful process - most of their classmates will get offers before Christmas but most medics won't hear til Easter (& sometimes later). But according to my DD it's worth it.

Roguedad total tariff scores are misleading. They will include ASs, A level General studies and critical thinking, grade 6+ music exams, the EPQ, drama exams and a whole host of other things. The average medic at Cambridge does NOT have 5 A levels at grade A+.

I think the academic achievements are less of an issue than the other application issues. You have to accept all applicants will have top grades so what gets an offer in Medicine are the other relevant experiences in the personal statement. Your DS needs to start accumulating evidence that he is serious about medicine as a career, volunteering and work experience are crucial.

titchy - I disagree with you on the level of bias here. I certainly agree that they can be slightly inflated by a music exam, but based on my experience of doing admissions at on Oxford college they are a much closer indication of the actual standard and number of A levels. It's certainly better advice for a 6th former to aim high on that basis than to claim you can get away with 3. I knew quite a few medics when I was at Cambridge (scraped in on a conditional offer doing 5 A levels with an offer based on 4) and they all had four or five.

mumsneedwine you have misunderstood how this works. Top Unis especially in highly competitive subjects have a very strong pool of candidates often doing 4 or 5 A levels. From that good pool they will choose the ones they like and make them an offer which might well often involve just 3 subjects. The ones they like the most, who might be the most high achieving kids, may be offered lower grades or be the most likely to be just asked for 3 subjects. That does not mean you can start off doing just 3 and expect that will be enough. Please do not confuse the number and levels of the eventual offer grades with the expected standard and the quality of the competition.

If you want a good illustration of the principle, although this does not happen any more, the kids who passed the old Scholarship exams were given an offer based on 2Es at A level. Based on the logic on this forum it appears that some would argue that you just need 2Es to get into Oxford. The whole point was that the group being offered 2Es were pre-selected as desirable from an outstanding pool, not that this was the expected standard. People really need to understand the difference - when I was involved in admissions and doing a bit of outreach work I was shocked at the misunderstanding over this.

If I misunderstood it them how come 2 of my kids are currently studying medicine ? I've actually lived through the application process and my kids have gone through it all with me. Believe me if not OP, but actual evidence is there if you go to TSR (the link I gave you is very useful).

If it helps OP my 2 have said I can give you their stars.

6A*, 3A 1B UKCAT 760. At Manchester with AAA (only took 3 A Levels)

5A, 2A, 3B AS AAAA UKCAT 720, BMAT average 5.9 UCL with AAA offer (actually got 3 As).

Both having a lovely time and currently on interns abroad.

And just because I hate misinformation, the following is copied from Newcastle's admission page :

AAA including Chemistry and/or Biology at A or AS level and excluding General Studies and Critical Thinking. If only one of Biology and/or Chemistry is offered at A or AS level, the other should be offered at GCSE grade A (or Dual Award Science grade A).

Once the academic criteria have been met, academic achievement is not considered further in subsequent parts of the application process. e.g additional A levels or A* results or additional GCSE results are not considered.

We would normally expect all applicants to have achieved their A Levels on their first attempt. Those who wish resits to be considered must provide information on the extenuating circumstances they wish to be considered. Supporting evidence must be provided from your school or GP.

Please see MBBS Admissions Policy 2015?? for more information.

Mumsneedwine, well done to your two who are clearly very successful but with all due respect, Manchester and UCL, although excellent, aren't Cambridge which is what the OP was asking about. As someone with a PhD from Cambridge in a subject related to medicine (and many friends who studied medicine there) I agree with roguedad. 3 A levels are highly unlikely to be enough to secure an offer, although the actual offer will probably only require 3.

That should have said "the actual offer will probably only specify 3. As roguedad said, offers are made among a pool of outstanding candidates and for Oxbridge the vast majority of these will be preparing for at least 4 A levels with expected A/A* in addition to other qualifications.

If your DS goes for IB, take specialist advice on the Maths option selected and check university requirements directly with admissions tutors. As I understand it, Maths Studies is adequate for Medicine (although maybe not Cambridge) and that buys time to do an excellent job with Higher Level sciences, also possibly take Psychology as an option. Also, IB includes mandatory volunteering ('CAS'), so relevant work experience can be undertaken in the slot allocated to that.

However, I agree with the pp who said that transition issues when changing school can cost UCAS points. Ime sometimes transferring students, especially boys, take 3 years to complete sixth form unless they are very self-motivated and choose exactly the right options at the start.

My son says that there a few students who took the IB on his course and he says they have had no problems. The required admissions criteria will be on all Uni websites. I do agree that Oxbridge do have different ways of assessing students for medicine, and they are much more results driven. However, I would suggest broadening horizons as getting into any medical school is an achievement and it makes no difference where you study when you apply for F1 positions (this is done blind to where students study - it's done by points). Every medical school will produce Drs and there are many different ways of studying - the traditional lecture route or a more modern route of Problem Based Learning. I have one at Cambridge studying maths so know what an amazing place it is, but look around as all the med schools are good.

Kings College Wimbledon, a flagship IB school, brought back A levels as an option specifically because of difficulties with IB for prospective medics, so I was told at their open evening. I think there is not enough depth in the IB as a preparation for medicine.