Moving to Buckinghamshire for good schools

[Tulip81]

We are thinking about moving to Buckinghamshire for the grammar schools. However my dc's are still too young, for us to tell whether they have the academic ability to pass the 11+. So please can anyone advise which areas of buckinghamshire have best comprehensives as a back up plan, if my dc's do not pass the 11+. Any help would be appreciated.

You know I meant 100% of private school students can afford the fees

I see what you mean but still maintain that it does make a difference. Not for all children, plenty would have got into grammar school regardless, but there will also be some who are tutored from their natural ability at maybe 117 to the coveted 120-123, thus getting them into the grammar school over a child who hasn't had the same opportunities.

Anyway OP, by all means use the information about primary schools, I certainly agree that having plenty of your cohort going with you would be a beneficial thing.

Yes, it probably does make a slight difference. for the majority no difference but for the borderline pupils it helps a bit.

My DS went to one of the schools that routinely very few pupils pass the 11+. It didn't stop him passing. But it did mean he didn't have any peers in his maths class which he would have had at a different school.

That's a shame. Def one of the downsides of the grammar system.

No, sorry I meant in primary school. So it's nothing to do with the grammar school system.

I know children in Amersham who are very happy - think it's a comprehensive. Amersham is great, and on the Met Line.

As regards Herts, the schools are part selective and all have some distance places.

St Clement Dane's catchment is most of Chorleywood (my DS didn't like it at the open day, but I know dozens of children either there or starting this year who seem happy with it).

Rickmansworth has a smaller catchment, but if you bought at the top end of Croxley you should be okay.

The grammar schools in Aylesbury are great. Particularly Aylesbury High School (for girls) and Aylesbury Grammar School (for boys).

I have two boys, not sure if that makes it easier or not .

There are NO comprehensive schools in a Bucks. Only in Milton Keynes. However the grammar schools in Buckingham and Aylesbury make up their numbers with loads of children from MK.

The overall pass rate varies according to what area of the county you live in. Generally the Aylesbury Vale area pass rate is much lower than Chiltern and South Bucks. Always has been. This appears to reflect income and educational background of the parents. (From the research I have seen). There are plenty of primary schools with a meagre pass rate but they are still good schools. However your child will not have lots of very bright classmates. In very many primary schools, passing the 11 plus counts more than SATs test results, as far as parents are concerned! Many parents care deeply and definitely don't want some secondary schools. Bucks now call them all ability schools but in reality this is not the case.

Every year there are parents who cannot believe their child has not attained a grammar school place and many do not see it as "easy". If only! It is easier than a London super selective though. All the grammar schools have the same pass mark but some fill up on appeals. There is a 1st and 2nd division of grammar schools! In choosing an area it is best to look at the quality of the secondary school available. Most have improved but some, eg in Aylesbury, wobble quite a lot! Some schools such as Waddesdon are continually outstanding. That is where I would go. Not so good for commuting though.

Regarding primary schools I would look at their data dashboards. This will tell you if they are doing well. Lots of private schools exist to cram for the 11 plus so tend to get the type of child who will thrive on this diet and have parents who have the money to make it will happen. It is not an indication that the state schools are not good. I would look at your transport options and then work out where you can live and look at schools in that area.

Boys wise, in South Bucks, you have lots of choice and your commuting distance will be reasonable.

Aylesbury Grammar and Dr Challoners are both great schools as is Waddesdon but much further out for commuting into London. Even Marlow is a bit of a push if driving and you have to be in catchment for Borlase or you'll have difficulties come 6th form time unless your boys are very academic.

Wycombe schools are a good option because you have the RGS as the high academic school and JHGS is the more nurturing, art and design focus school. Both have the same 11+ pass rate but have different skills IYSWIM. Nice to have a choice. Commuting is easy to London, even from the outer villages.

Having said that, Marlow is next to Maidenhead and Crossrail is going to make it much faster (and unfortunately more expensive and it's already bloody pricey!) so commuting from there would be ok too.

In terms of secondary schools, Great Marlow and Highcrest in Wycombe are considered to be good schools. Beaconsfield is also good. Princes Risborough is a good school but then you'd be looking at a much longer commute (though my Dad does it from around there and he manages ok!).

Really what I'm saying is that is depends on your house budget and how long your other half is willing to commute for. If he wants to drive in to London, you'll need to make different choices to the train etc.

The areas with good schools are priced accordingly, unfortunately.

I have come across Waddesdon in my searches, it seems like a great alternative, if my kids do not pass the 11+. But as youve pointed out looklikeimstuckhere, it it in north bucks, which may not be an issue, but i will need discuss further with dh. I hadnt thought about marlow, so will look into it.

Millymollymama thank you, thats very informative. On what basis would parents appeal on if their child does not get admission to a grammar school?! Surely if they do not get the magic 121 mark, you dont get in? If applying for a bucks grammar school and you reside in milton keynes, would it be the top scoring pupils that would get admission?

I do not assume that my boys will pass the 11+, hence the need for a good upper school. Our house move is primarily for good schools and shock horror, house prices reflect that.

Lots of think about (and research).

Appeals tend to be when children have achieved a result of anything from 115 to 120.

Usually, it will be because they had an off day, extenuating circumstances or really did not perform to expectations.

In all cases, the schools will have given them a 'grade' beforehand. It's just an indication of their suitability for grammar school. The appeals board will then decide which are the most suitable candidates for the final places.

Waddesdon does have transport nearby at Haddenham. It is a train line that goes direct into London Marylebone but isn't exactly a fast route... The train would take over an hour I would think, if not longer.

I think (but am not sure) that there is quite a lot of competition for Waddesdon places as well so you'd need to look carefully at catchment (maps all online at Bucks CC website).

I imagine there is lookslikeimstuckhere. Having looked at waddesdon on google maps, it a lot more north than i remember .

Back to the drawing board.......

It would only be by exception that Milton Keynes pupils would go to grammar schools, and I think that they'd probably all have to appeal to get in ad they are out of catchment. On what grounds, I'm not sure. My sister is considering this for her DC in the near future. And Buckingham (for Royal Latin) is in the main, much easier and quicker to get to than Aylesbury (for the girls' High, the boys' Grammar and Sir Henry Floyd which is mixed). The other grammars would be much top far away from MK.

Re schools in MK, it's changing quite fast as mk is growing v quickly and schools are being open, and reading maturity etc quite quickly. Again, it would depend on what side of Mk that you live on. For travel to Buckingham you'd want to be on the west ish side I think.

Interesting Milly that you say that Bucks now regard the secondary schools as all ability. I know of a few schools that have said that with the new 11 plus test they have found that many of their most able students have been given very low scores in the test even though they are working at the correct levels for Grammar school, someone did say to me that they wondered if this was the LEA's way of pushing up results in the secondary schools. This now makes me wonder even more.

I think the Bucks schools fill up on distance if you're not in catchment, not on score. ie 121 is still the pass mark and then they take people who live closest to fill any remaining places.

I know people from outside catchment get into Beaconsfield High and Burnham Grammar this way.

So I assume the same would be true of Milton Keynes......

Don't forget in Bucks if you fail the 11+ you can also sit the 12+ and 13+ if you really think your DC should be in a grammar. But it's a much better plan to do what you're doing, and move to an area where you like both types of schools.

If you live in an affluent part of Bucks, the non grammar schools are generally better than the comprehensives in most of London. ie they get more Level 5s on entry, and correspondingly get good GCSEs.

Compare Great Marlow School ( www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=136964&superview=sec ) which isn't a grammar, to this comprehensive inside the M25: www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=135004&superview=sec

MK pupils get in because they pass the Bucks 11 plus. They are not let in on appeal. Then Sir Henry Floyd GS in Aylesbury has about 25% or more pupils from MK and has done for years . The Royal Latin in Buckingham likewise. It is not possible to stop children taking the test because they do not live in Bucks. Maidenhead children can go to Sir William Borlase's in Marlow and loads of children come from the Rickmansworth area to Dr Challoners schools. Waddesdon people commute from Aylesbury Vale Parkway, not Haddenham. I think the secondary schools did not like that name and a few people do choose them over a grammar school place. The secondary schools mostly have 6th forms, although some are poor, so they technically can cater for all abilities. However they are not comparable in many ways but many are good schools. Many have improved a great deal and are capable of sustaining this. Others struggle to maintain high quality leadership and have dips in standards , even in affluent areas! The main thing is to plan to be near a good secondary school. Waddesdon is C of E and has a minuscule catchment area. Church affilliation gets the children in from Haddenham, not catchment area!

Lots of parents that live in Bucks hate the Grammar school system even those with children in Grammar schools. It's a lot of pressure for the children and the upper schools are seen as second best even if they are pretty decent schools. I would avoid moving to Buckinghamshire because of the system rather than choose to live there.

Lots of people seem to think that a Grammar school is the be all and end all but what is so great about them? A good comprehensive school will set it's pupils according to ability.

Education has become so politicised over recent years who knows whether the Grammar school system or the Comprehensive school system will even exist in 10 or 15 years time.

Millymollymama, having reviewed the admissions criteria, the oversubscription criteria is looked after children, catchment, church affiliation etc. You mention the 'dips' in standards, thats the schools im trying to avoid. Im trying to find schools that are established and consistent with their standards, although i understand anything can happen. My eldest wont be attending a secondary school for a number of years, hence the need for consistent schools. You may think why do we want to move now and surely its best to wait and few years and see how the schools are doing then. The primary schools are substandard where we live, our catchment primary currently 'needs improvement' and has a local reputation of the children that attend there of having poor behaviour. The local high school is the same, poor exams results, behaviour etc.

I think you will find this same problem with a lot of schools in Bucks as well Tulip81

Sorry, just come back to this thread. Great Marlow is a fabulous upper, but you have to live close. Amersham School certainly better though of than it was. Beaconsfield School improved but a lot of people have been removing children, not sure why. Chalfont Community College well thought of, I believe. Some of the Wycombe Uppers are dire, so be careful there. Avoid Burnham Upper (has a new name) for now, but things could change so much in a few years. I think the Uppers are gaining from too many out of catchment children taking the tests with no intention of taking the places, meaning local children don't get places & go the Uppers.

I am not sure what admiddions criteria you are referring to, Tulip81, but if it is Waddesdon, you need to remember that the catchment area extends very little beyond Waddesdon, to just a handful of neighbouring villages, and the other chldren are chosen by affiliation to C of E. They may come from as far as 10-15 miles away - and definitely South of Aylesbury! There are children that have to travel through Waddesdon to get to their schools in Aylesbury but cannot get into Waddesdon.

You can check the consistently good secondary schools by looking at the number of Ofsted reports that have declared them to be grade 4 or now, grade 3. Some have a long history of this, e.g. Buckingham School, Burnham, Cressex, Quarrendon (now Aylesbury Vale Academy). Other such as Misbourne and John Colet have blips but, especially Misbourne, are consistently pretty good. Chalfonts and Waddesdon are consistently great. Great Missenden has a fantastic primary too as does Little Kingshill and Little Chalfont.

Believe me, the grammar schools only take pupils who will do well in a grammar school but they do not want unfilled places because, obviously, that is less money for them in a time of real budget constraints. Bucks is a very low spending authority. Therefore any child who is a few points of the pass mark can often be offered a place on appeal, but at 25% plus of places being taken by out of County children, there is no real evidence to support that local children could have obtained these places. They just did not get close enough to, or above, the pass mark. If you look at Aylesbury Vale, there are 4 grammar schools and 6 secondary schools, plus a small free school. I will look at the admission numbers, but last year the initial pass rate in Aylesbury Vale was 16%. If the grammars did not take out of County children, they would be making drastic changes to the schools in terms of teaching staff, subjects offered etc. They NEED these children to keep the numbers up and the results comensurate with grammar school expectations. The 11 plus is now an exam chosen by the grammar schools, not the LA. It is what they want. They also want the brightest children and they do not care where they come from.

Sorry everyone - I cannot add up. There are 4 grammar schools in Aylesbury Vale and 8 secondary schools including one free school which is very small at the moment.

The published admissions numbers are: Grammars - 684, Secondaries and Free School - 1320. This suggests just over 33% of chidren go to the grammar schools, but they do not. For many years Aylesbury Vale has had a lower pass rate than the more southern parts of the County and it has never been 33%. 20 - 24% is nearer the mark. However, the results at the grammar schools (although one is less good) are top class and have continued to be so for many years. Lower achieving children just will not be allowed in over bright children from elsewhere.

To add a tiny bit to what Milly says above, for Bucks grammar schools, out of county also refers to MK pupils, as they come under a different unitary authority - so Mk borough Council as opposed to bucks County Council, and similarly different education authorities.

I agree, thehumanjam, that Mr Corbyn may want to get rid of grammar schools, but successive Labour governments have failed to do so and, in recent times, have not tried. The Royal Latin School was founded in Buckingham in 1423 (or even earlier) so is not about to throw in the towel to any political whim. It is, like all the other grammar schools, an adademy. Bucks has never had a County Council that was not Conservative, by the way. I would bet a fairly substantial sum of money that grammar schools in Bucks will be around in 10-15 years.