Is it too early to start a 2016 girls 11+ W/SW London thread?

[orangina]

What do we think? DD is sitting 11+ for various consortium schools in January 2016 and I am slightly desperate for a thread to compare notes, pat each others shoulders etc..... I lurked on last years thread, but it didn't start until much later....

Just booking up open day places and filling in my registration forms now.....

Over tutoring children does no favours whatsoever in the long run. My dc1 got in off the wait list to a top academic school from a state primary with an hour a week tutoring for 4 terms, plus some parental input. The purpose of the tutoring/parental input was to cover things in maths that the national curriculum in a state school simply does not cover in time for January of year 6, and possibly never does cover in English to a sufficient degree of difficulty. The tutoring was not intended to hot-house into an academic school beyond the child's natural ability level. DC1 is now out the other end, to first choice uni, without a single penny being spent on further tutoring after December of year 6. That is how it should be, but I can tell you that plenty of kids who were over-tutored to get in at 11 either did not do as well as expected academically in the end, (with more than you might think missing their first choice uni offers), or only did so with a good deal of additional tutoring over the years. Madness.

It may be unrealistic to expect schools to be able to spot many over-tutored kids, but you can't blame them for trying.

Yes crazy2016 there are more of us whose DS or dd didn't get an interview at LU. Gutted . DD already there, DS screwed up on the day because he wanted it so much. Sadness indeed. Hard to see such disappointment.

So sorry Tunis. It's all so depends on what happens on that particular day. With 10 year olds I think that makes a huge difference- another thing wrong with the whole system! I think as someone says however that they do bounce back quite quickly - my DD was fine about it - partly as she had not invested much in that partic school for some reason... But it's still hard after all the work and effort. The system is clearly focused in the first pre interview round on exam ranking and does not take into account any extenuating circumstances or school reference so that is v tough on the kids - and the parents!

gladtobedone we took the DIY route. For several reasons: first the money. Second I wanted control on the work pace, stress level and life balance. Third I wanted a deep understanding of the whole thing so I could accomodate the prep to DS personality. It became a family project and actually quite rewarding.

I should add he was at a state primary with lots of friends going to state secondaries.

My dcs were at a non-selective prep where parental expectations re- 11 plus senior school options are very much managed by the head from the middle of year 5. It is strongly discouraged to go for any more than 4 schools and the head will definitely tell you in no uncertain terms if your dc has no chance of getting into a particular school. This can result in some disgruntled parents in the short term, but is less stressful than sitting a whole load of schools "just in case" and then dealing with the possible fall out. If your child is unlikely to get into a school, the prep head will simply refuse to give them a reference for that school! Prep heads have their reputation to maintain with the senior schools and will look incompetent if they send DC with little chance of meeting their entry requirements. Tutoring may go on, but it is very minimal. They are doing sample papers in school and for h/w anyway so there is no need for more of the same. I realise we were very lucky in this respect. In nearly all cases, DC get into their top choice schools and, in waiting list situations, the head will get on the phones for them.

With reference to families that chose not to tutor: last year our daughter sat for four schools often mentioned on these threads and got four offers. She went to a middle-range prep and was in the top third of the class, but by no means a prodigy. We did not tutor, but just did some practice papers over the xmas holidays so she would be familiar with the types of questions she would encounter on the exams, and had some practice answering questions under a time limit. We also had a family friend conduct a practice interview with her. That's it.

If you are coming from a state primary and hoping to move to a selective independent, then some tutoring might be necessary to bridge a gap, but otherwise, I would think very carefully about whether the extra time spent with a tutor (as opposed to playing, doing sport, resting), the money spent, and the extra pressure and stress are worth it, especially as a child who only gets a place at a certain school after lots of tutoring might have to continue the tutoring in secondary just to keep up.

Of course the system isn't perfect, but on the whole I think it works out most of the time, and I believe the schools are constantly honing their selection processes to make them as fair and correct as possible. After all, it's not in their interest to admit pupils who will not thrive there.

From my daughter's prep, a few were initially disappointed with the offers they received, but a year on, all are happy where they ended up. My advice would be: think very carefully if the schools you are looking at are really suited to your child (and isn't on your list just because of its prestige), tutor only if you think it's really necessary to close an obvious gap but not just because you think everyone else is (it's not true that everyone else is tutoring!), don't sit too many exams (just choose a small number very carefully, and make them all schools that you would genuinely be happy for your child to attend, even if it's your "safety" school), and most of all, try not to let your own anxieties about the process filter down to your child.

I know it's easy for me to say, since we're already out the other end, but a year from now you will be too. I remember very well how it felt last year, and just wanted to send you all reassurance that, in almost all cases, whatever happens will be for the best, even if it doesn't feel like it now.

Orca123 you have been fortunate. You must know others where things didn't really work out well. I think we all do and that adds to the pressure of this process!

I'm sorry Almostdone, my post was not intended to sound smug.

I'm well aware that the system does sometimes let people down, and even those who get the results they hope for find the process stressful, and the disappointments can be very real and painful. I HATED it while we were going through it and had to fight quite hard to prevent my daughter perceiving how much I felt was riding on the outcome, because I thought the most important thing was that she not feel too much pressure.

Obviously, that approach worked for us, but point of my post was that it IS possible to choose NOT to join the arms race, e.g. through intensive tutoring, and I wanted to give support to people not wanting to go that route and needing reassurance that tutoring isn't as universal as some might think. But this is probably advice for next year's 11+, as everyone on this thread is already at the waiting for results stage. My sincerest sympathies to those who don't get the offers they hope for, but I really do hope any disappointment will be temporary, and you will in the end all get places where your DCs will be happy!

Orca321 thank you for your encouraging words. Perhaps as you say when we all know the outcomes it will feel easier. However I have been left feeling throughout this whole process that there are now v v few if any schools in our vicinity in west London which are non selective and the whole system does seem geared to the very very able child who can deliver on the day. I have a laid back and very non competitive lovely middle of the road, creative girl and it really has not felt like any of the consortium schools for example are geared up for those children who are not in the top percentiles but who will still probably by A'levels do pretty well... I know that skme of our choices were aspirational and my dD was aware of that hence being fine with the Latymer no but I am worried that any of them
Will take her! I'll stop now as as starting to note myself let alone everyone else on this!!!

Crazy

It's never good to get a rejection letter, but please remember that LU is really in a league of its own when it comes to numbers of applicants. It's a numbers game -1200 for 120 places! And only half of those are for girls. Other schools, even other super-selectives like G&L have far less applicants and all the places are for girls. As you describe your dd as a happy, fairly academic girl, she has probably dodged a bullet to be honest. Good luck!

gladtobedone and choselatymer, I also went for the DIY route with DD although I did have moments of terrible self-doubt and wondered if I'd let her down by tutoring her myself (in hindsight, this was more about me panicking, having been infected by the West London 11+ hysteria than anything else). The decision was largely financial and I didn't want her to go into her exams totally unprepared. Like another poster has said, there were things that she just wouldn't have been taught in Maths by the time of the exams so we spent much more time on Maths than English. We started with an hour or two of Maths once a week from Easter of Y5 then added in English from the start of Y6 as she is a very strong writer but I felt she needed some techniques for the comprehension. She then did quite a few practise papers from the October half-term of Y6 onwards. She got offers from LU and NHEHS and an interview at SPGS although no offer from them in the end (we only applied to these 3), but I felt confident that wherever she ended up, she would cope just fine as she hadn't been over-intensively tutored for the exams. Interestingly, in her form at LU, it seems to be the children who came up from the prep who sometimes struggle with the work.

Parents and children do get upset when they don't get into LU but-while all seem to like the school once there- given the selective intake there is no evidence to suggest that LU outperforms the other West London private schools and IMO bright girls can do just as well at some of the smaller schools such as St James or FHNW1. Indeed LU pupils are still some way behind the likes of Westminster and SPGS in terms of gaining entry to top unis. For example both Latymer and Westminster have around 180 pupils in the sixth form and last year I think Latymer got 21 Oxbridge places whereas Westminster got 97-nearly 5 times as many.

Going to Oxbridge is no longer the be-all-and-end-all though (if it ever was)! Surely it depends on the course? LU is not an exam factory and, once in, it actually has a surprisingly open and non-competitive vibe about it. Pupils range from some serious academics to those who see themselves as a bit "too cool for school"😆 but in general, pupils don't define themselves by their academic results. They are just as likely to head off to drama / art schools or whatever as to the so called "top unis" and this is equally valued. If Oxbridge is your thing though, there's no reason not to get there. U.S. Unis are also increasingly popular.

I think they do show a lot of resilience- and DD had enjoyed the rest of the day out of school with the exams and interviews post exams.
She has also said that she is going to open all the letters, all on the last day where we get a letter, so that she can see them all at the same time. I am under strict instructions not to look at one of the responses that comes by email.
I think giving them as much control as possible helps. i find it has not been stressful with her - perhaps because it is my 3rd time

I am really puzzled as to why LU is suddenly so sought after. It seems to have been since Tatler called it 'the coolest school in London'. Personally that put me off!

Thanks, everyone, for your responses (we also took the DIY route). As orca321 said, "it IS possible to choose NOT to join the arms race" and, like choselatymer, we found it very rewarding (and somewhat fun) to prepare our DD. We went in this direction because we wanted DD to fit in academically wherever she ended up and worried that excessive preparation would have harmed her in the long-run (ie struggling to keep up and being unhappy).

From what I have seen, I think the stress experienced by DC comes as much (perhaps even mostly) from their parents as from classmates, teachers, etc. For us, perhaps what helped in terms of managing our (and DD's) stress levels was that we never thought the 11+ would be destiny-defining for DD (basically, we embraced Crazy2016's view that DC may develop at different rates) and, being foreigners, we were to an extent insulated (due to our ignorance) from the frenzy surrounding the 11+.

I am aware that the next couple of weeks will feel like an eternity but please remember - as mentioned by posters up the thread - that most DC (and their parents) end up liking their chosen secondary schools, even those that were considered back-ups at first.

I am an LU parent with a child towards the top end of the school, and actually my dc's year is quite mixed academically. I mean they are obviously all reasonably bright but not all highly academic by any means. My dc was probably only just about in the top third of the class in primary school, and whilst he's never been near the top, he's also not at the bottom of the year group either.

Knowing the academic level of a few other children who went there that intake, I don't believe for a minute that they just offered to the top x number from the exam. I think back then, under the previous head, that the criteria were probably broader (because even then the numbers applying were insane) - they must have also been seeking a certain something else. This also might explain why, in neuroticnicky's eyes they are appearing to underperform in terms of results. I just don't think the intake historically is at all comparable with that of Westminster - it will be interesting to see if the more recent intakes begin to close the gap.

To answer Jeanne's query about why LU is so popular, I think it is geography! It is really easily accessible by children from a huge radius, unlike say LEH, Hampton or KGS which are too far away to appeal to those in central or north London. Academically it feels more accessible than the likes of SPGS, St Paul's, Westminster. I would say it is in the Goldilocks zone of London day schools!

jeanne16, I think LU has been the ecole du jour for a long time. Certainly since my eldest went through the 11+ malarky and I became aware of SW London secondaries. I totally agree: comments like the Tatler one totally put me off a place!

Yes Alwaysfrank, location of LU does make it popular. Many of my North London friends' DC sat for it.

I agree with alwaysfrank that the problem with looking at today's LU stats is that they reflect the pupils joining 7 years ago plus a few new sixth formers. I know some very bright children who have gone there recently and ,although I'm not a great fan of the LU site myself, I think that the combination of location and co-ed will pay dividends in the long term and would expect recent LU intakes to start to close the gap with the likes of Westminster.

Neuroticnicky may well be right but isn't that just another example of how little value any of these schools actually add. Any school that can cherry pick all the top pupils can easily get top grades out of them. It doesn't mean the teachers are any better.

Always reminds me of a friend's son who was at SPS. He got an A* in iGCSE maths, as did his entire year group, but they would not allow him to do A level maths as he did not get 100% for his GCSE exam. If you only allow the absolute best to do a subject, then teachers aren't really needed. The pupils could teach themselves from the textbook.

Btw I have put 2 DCs through these SW Independent schools so I am not having a pop at private schools. I just wonder sometimes....

I agree with you jeanne16 i.e. I don't actually think schools-whether independent or state- add much value and there is plenty of research to suggest that genes and parental involvement play a larger part than the actual school in academic achievement. If the kids at Westminster/SPS/SPGS etc are the brightest private pupils at 11 or 13 is it surprising that they are the brightest at 18 provided they work as hard as everyone else (and I think Westminster still even has school on Saturdays)? What is more difficult is to persuade people that even if their DC attended a state school they would probably get the same grades .Re the London state schools it will be particularly interesting to see what happens in 7 years with Holland Park where the lure of the new building, coupled with changes to the admission criteria (now purely distance from the school), mean that the top band -over a third of the entry-now seems to comprise almost entirely MC children quite a few of sat the 11 plus and got offered places at the likes of LU.

Well, having been both to a comp and to one of the schools mentioned here, I'd say there is a HUGE amount of added value in certain schools. I'd probably have got the same grades at the comp (though I couldn't have studied all the subjects I would have liked), but the other school was a far more enriching experience in many ways. The teachers were in a different league. I also (we moved a lot) attended another very academic and selective school, but it wasn't nearly as good (though still better than the comp) - the top London schools can attract the very best and most inspiring teachers.