Is it too early to start a 2016 girls 11+ W/SW London thread?

[orangina]

What do we think? DD is sitting 11+ for various consortium schools in January 2016 and I am slightly desperate for a thread to compare notes, pat each others shoulders etc..... I lurked on last years thread, but it didn't start until much later....

Just booking up open day places and filling in my registration forms now.....

Ladymuck, you have given me some hope.

I'm sorry Crazy. It is rubbish and so painful.

Crazy - it just won't happen. You will get a place. Its just annoying that the element of total choice has been removed from you, especially when you are spending your hard earned money.

Thank you. Yes we will bounce back..! In reflecting on this whole process I think I would do it very differently with hindsight.. In fact I'm not sure I would out ourselves through it all and move house instead! I am quite concerned about what this Kind of madness and pressure is doing to mu 10 year old... Anyone else feeling like me?!

I think you will feel differently once it's all over Crazy2016. However I will say that I went through the process from abroad last year and it was very nice to be detached from the pressure and madness. It's just the end result that wasn't so good! Having had overseas experience and having been "away from it all", I'm pretty sure that if I come back I'll be bunging them straight into state schools. Famous last words!

I feel very much the same Crazy. My DD is really starting to struggle even though the exams are done and she has one offer. The stress just goes on and on.

I think the whole process is getting totally out of hand and is not in the best interests of the children. It's impossible to insulate them from the anxiety.

Completely agree with Crazy & Shirley. The extent of the scrutiny of our children - their cognitive abilities, maths AND English (not allowed any weakness), reasoning, words AND pictures (one strength is insufficient) and finally they are to be judged on their personality and reaction to questions and perhaps found wanting? Fine for astronaut selection perhaps but not 10year old children. The more you think about it the more troubling it is. We have been 100% "successful" so far (too early for offers) and it's still wearing us out. Yes, we might feel different (relief) if we ultimately get the school we want but this does not make it right.

Similar to above, my DD has been called back to interview by all the schools that have them post interview but instead of feeling happy we just feel like it's yet another hoop that our poor daughter has to go through.
(Side note though to Crazy2016 and inattzz - so sorry you had to hear bad news at this stage / bloody unfair and disheartening - hope good news comes soon)
So far she has been fine and is pleased to be selected but even she ( who is such a nice kid- the opposite of cynical) is beginning to question why and what is it that they are looking for? Having been through loads of interviews in my lifetime, all I can offer her is to be herself but the most intelligent, articulate version of herself possible. And I feel like a sham for saying it because no 10/11 year old should think about herself in this way .., not yet anyway. Shouldn't they only start worrying about putting their "face on" at uni stage? It's a system that just feels so terribly wrong. We all know our children are wonderful .., and terrible ... But that 1 exam and 1 interview shouldn't be the measure of them. It's so utterly maddening and yet, it's what we have so we have to roll with it.

Maybe we should all band together to home school? Or create a real alternative school for these factories. But how does one get the green acreage of the Dulwich schools! Obvs their biggest selling point? Or the history of SPGS, Westminster, KCS ETC ....

Sorry to hear your news Crazy. All I can say is the "gutted" feeling does pass a bit.

I do wonder if we are feeling it worse with most of us coming from State Primaries? I know that people tend to assume that the Prep school parents are more "Tiger mum" but the prep school kids are all so much more prepared and entrenched in the Indy school culture, and, in my view - halfway there. So presumably less stressful.

For me and DD it feels a bit like trying to make the leap from small grass roots cupcake business to the 90 City Banker jobs available against 800 people who have been working in banking forever.

Such a mountain to climb and education should not be like this. I think 11+ - more than any other time - highlights the injustice of how schools currently operate.

Commiserations for those of you with tired children. I did this last year, and one of the things I always try to convey from our experience is don't enter for too many schools as it is such a tiring process. But if you look at threads and posts in September/October, people blithely talk about applying for 6 or so schools. I completely understand about the need to keep irons in the fire, but it really is a draining process for all concerned. DH and I were in logistical knots about who was taking time off work to collect DD from school and then take her to an interview and then take her back home/to school afterwards. There was one day when there was a tube strike as well and it was like doing some sort of Ninja Uk-style assault course, frankly.

We did 3 schools for one DC and 4 last year for the second DC, and I think in retrospect even 4 seemed too many, although definitely in a two year period 4 had become the "new normal". But then it's really hard not to have a twitch and chuck an extra school in. We certainly applied for one as a banker which we had absolutely no intention of going to, but it's hard not to think "What if...." and to have the luxury of knowing for a couple of weeks that you have one in the bag. But then I completely accept that I was adding to the ratcheting up etc, which made me a bit uneasy. In fact it was last year's thread where there were people on the wait list for that school anxious for news of movement that made me realise I was part of the problem - or at least contributing to it.

I'm not sure what the ideal world is. I think part of the problem is having no clear idea where your child may get into. My DC were at a prep school with a lot of experience in this and they were pretty helpful - although quite off beam with one DC, so I wouldn't like people to think it's a straight nod from yr prep school and all is good - so I get that people without this help can be really adrift. Probably more consortium tests would help, or even a general one, so you sit a single exam and then on the back of it apply to 2 or 3 schools, depending on fit. My DD desperately wanted to go to one school because it offered girls' football and cheerleading (yay - straight line to Oxbridge, DD!) It would be good if you knew in advance you were in the right academic ball park, and then worked out what suited you around the edges (extra curricular/journey/siblings/cheerleading etc). This would help the schools as well, as they must have a number of children sitting the tests who realistically never have a hope in hell of getting in.

from what i've been told a general interview really is just a screening

a specific subject interview eg at KGS means they were borderline on that paper and so they are trying to see if they underperformed or whether they are below the academic ability.

shy, quiet is all fine. having absolutely NOTHING to say for yourself / moodiness / shrug shoulders when asked a question is not.
shouting down others, not able to sit etc in group interviews is not ok.

just make sure they have something to say. they will always be asked what they do in their spare time, a book they're reading/have enjoyed, show some interest in sport/drama/music - anything.

The interview is also a good "selling" tool for those who will end up holding a few offers - this gives them the chance to have a good experience of the school and to feel like they would be happy there.

Girls were crying outside the school where I took my dd for an interview this morning.

It is an awful process, but you have to trust that the schools are good at identifying children who will be happy there. I have been through the 11+ hell four times, and ended up with dc at four different SW London schools. The one with the most stressful 11+ journey is the one who is most overtly happy at their school, a school which on paper was our least favourite, and a backup option. FWIW, I think that the schools expect slightly less of state school applicants than their prep school counterparts, and are seeking potential rather than the finished article. Good luck and stay positive!

agree RascarCapac

the state school head should be able to advise a bit - ours did. They have EPIPs or equivalent tests done in reception, yr2 and yr4. These do give a good indication apparently. The head would also know the private schools where children do go from their school, where they tend to get in and where they don't.

The fact is many secondaries have feeder preps - LEH, SHS, St George's, Hampton so sometimes you really are competing for just a few places. I'm not sure it really is that much easier from the preps like Newland House, twickenham prep etc. without feeders. Although i guess you get a second chance at 13.

Great post RascarCapac

Our state school gave zero help, no advice. They wrote a standard reference, for a fee, which was sent to all schools who asked for one, but that was it. Even taking more than half a day for the exams was unauthorised absence, when in reality there were a couple where we would have only made it back to school for about 2.30 so what was the point?!

was this pre or post interview Almostdone2?

fwiw at the Tiffin exam girls are often crying, being sick etc. That's nothing the school has done.

I've been thinking about the "ratcheting up" that seems to happen year on year.

DC 1 sat 4, got 3 offers and one waiting list which came through as an offer
DC 2 sat 5, got one rejection, 4 offers
DC 3 sat 5, got one rejection, three offers and a waiting list
DC 4 sat 5, three rejections and two offers.

DCs 3 and 4 are at least as bright if not brighter than 1 and 2, yet the journey was so much harder for DC4 than all the others. It's easy to say 5 is too many to sit, but which ones should we have left out? I'm really glad he sat them all, with the benefit of hindsight.

Our state primary were no help either. It's a brilliant primary but I have to confess to a feeling of sniffy/not our ethos, about it all from the teachers.

We definitely feel a bit like we are wading through treacle.

would be interesting to have others input on this Alwaysfrank. I do think 5 is a lot though i guess where you live has a big influence on the number of available schools.

in 2015 DD1 did 2 and got 2.
next year DD2 will do 3. one is unlikely, one i am hopeful, one is a banker.

but we also have good state options so i don't need lots of back ups.

Very interesting posts from rascar and always frank
Think the whole process lacks integrity - we are all taking a shot in the dark about schools as even a great prep like my DD's school have no idea which kids will get offers from which schools. They counsel us to widen the net because it's getting harder and harder to predict. 10 years ago Alleyn's had about 200+ applicants for their 130 places, this year it was 711 a fall from last year's 800+ Perhaps because parents got turned off by the lack of prefictability? I certainly think a south London consortium would be useful or even an ISEB type exam for the day schools and some standardisation of the process, At a time when there are so many books and social commentary about the dangers of putting too much academic and other pressures on kids it seems ludicrous on the one hand to have heads of various respected secondaries making pronouncements about us pushy parents putting too much pressure on our children and then having such a mad opaque system for secondary school entry - I am thinking in particular about the heads of SPGS, KCS, wimbledon, Wellington, Eton - all schools with absolutely madly competitive and idiosyncratic exam and entry process.

I think it's certainly true that the sands are shifting and even the prep schools that have a lot of experience in predicting where would suit and a track record of prior pupils that they can benchmark against are finding it hard.

My DCs prep did a lot of CATs - maybe twice a year from Y2 onwards. So the school had a pretty consistent body of evidence of what any child was capable of and their range. But the head told me the crucial bit of info they were missing was what range the secondary school wanted. She said they had their own informal views, based on what offers had been made to children at the school in previous years, and so you could say - well, if your blended/average CAT rates are about 115 you are not going to get into SPGS, but that was probably pretty much evident anyway. She said her life would be much easier if the secondary schools could give some pointers as to what they were looking for, as effectively the only thing the prep school could go on was what had happened in the previous year - and that was also dependent on the prep school having had children (who they had a body of info about) applying to that secondary.

I feel, and understand your pain right now, but I also think there is a danger of being careful what you wish for. Early up, someone has already confirmed that Emanuel has already closed its list for 2017. If all did that (and some are now thinking of capping based on yoy increase in applications), then the result will be like putting names down before we've had out kids for sought after nursery places. How many of us know this well before Y5?

I don't know what the fair way is, but I am glad there is another tier for those passing the academic thresholds. Those that sit the grammar (we didn't), will know it's black or white, first over the line. Doesn't take away the crazy numbers and queues around Kingston, therefore the stress on the child. And if you had an off day? Forget it.

Whether the interview is a marketing add on or has some value add to the school, think of the value it has on you and your child, as when the offers do come in (and they will), you will need to decide what to accept. I don't just mean the child's interview, it's also your interaction with the school on the days you are there, observing, talking to the teachers, school children, other parents etc. We were most certainly off put by one on the interview day after talking to a head of year about the school's sports provisions...

Most of you on here have opted for the very selective independents, and by that very nature, the process is, selective. Agree, there's some dark art in play...who knows how it gets applied, but, would you want your child being accepted in a school that they may not be suited to longer term? At the time, it's painful, but the cliche rings true that it is possibly a blessing in disguise, and the right school presents itself in the process. Though I know some slip through the net.

The question is asked, how many schools...we did 4, got one rejection, 3 offers. In hindsight, one too many. No prep background. Our head's advice? 'mm...long shot to get into any of them' so clearly ignored there.

We parents do need to hold some responsibility in the frenzy - holding one's nerve is not easy, and whilst not on here, I know this and last year who have sat in excess of 10. But, we knew that on the back of prepping, Christmas, exams, interviews - the wait to mid Feb/March is a long game. That our children are young, and that burn out is inevitable, but we still chose to do it, because we thought it was worth it.

It is not in these schools' interests (well most, I believe) to have the 1 profile type child...so it's still all to play for.

Totally conscious that some of you have had disappointing news already, but many of you have made it through to final stages. That means they got through to the top 1/3. Doesn't matter if it's 500 or 1300 applicants (our doing, by entering for more), they met the standard to go through to last stages. Hold your nerve, and try see the last stage as an opportunity for yourselves as much as for the school, to see if that school is worthy of your child...even if you don't have the 100% choice at this stage. In a couple of weeks, you may....

Unfortunately the minute schools start telling prep schools (or anyone) exactly what they're looking for, children will be rigorously coached, trained, brainwashed or whatever it takes. I think it's much better to have a general Maths/English entrance exam - if they're going to get extra tuition it might as well be in something useful, and keep people guessing (to some extent) about interviews.

While Oxbridge statistics are great for a school's prestige, it doesn't hurt to have educated a few prominent sportspeople, artists, stand up comedians etc... either.

The tears were before the interview.

Notatigermum, I agree. The schools set the process.