Uni - better to apply for a deferred place or apply a whole year later???

[Helpuschoose]

DD is currently in year 12 and has just finished AS levels. She would like to take a year off before going to uni, mainly to get some relevant work experience for her chosen career. The job she wants to do doesn't require a specific degree or qualification but undoubtedly going in as a graduate would make her a better candidate than going in at 18 or 19. so she definitely wants to go to university for career and just general educational reasons. I was secretly quite pleased that she said she wanted to take a year off because I thought what she had in mind was to get her A2's out of the way, look at the grades, apply for a place somewhere where those grades would be acceptable. This would also mean we didn't have to go through the stress during next year (year 13) of open days and conditional offers and she could just concentrate on collegel and passing her driving test!

However, DD has said that she intends to go through the normal process of applications with her year group but just ask for deferred place. She is our oldest child and I have no idea whether this is a good idea or not. She's predicted mainly B's but told she could get an A in a couple of her subjects on a good day (!) which is another reason why I think applying with her actual grades in hand might be better although then again having conditional offers might motivate her for her A2's next year!

Does anyone have any experience of what universities think about people asking to defer entry? Wouldn't it be better to wait and see how she does in her AS's and match her applications to her actual real results? It's so long since I did all this I have no idea what is the best way to approach uni entrance these days.

If I were advising my own DC I would definitely advise them to put in an application in Y13 with their predictions and to see what comes along. It's not that stressful if you've got an eye on deferral in any event. If an offer she likes comes through, then your DD could write to the uni asking if she could defer. They might very well say yes. That would then take the stress out of the following year. She could also decline it and re-apply if she exceeds her predictions - or even changes her mind. The reason I wouldn't ask to defer at the outset is that it reduces her chance of an offer in the current cycle.

I was recently talking to a work colleague about this. Her DC applied with her results for a very competitive course. The first Uni to offer her an interview was also her first choice, two days later they offered her a place, job done. She said no fretting about getting the grades, no worrying about writing a personal statement and studying the A levels at the same time, her DC was also a year older and more mature (very relevant to the course she was applying for), she felt this helped, and she talked about her all work experience she'd done whilst waiting for her A2 results.
I was firmly in the apply in year 13 camp until I talked to her now I can see the advantage of waiting till they've got the results in their hot little hands. I was also recently advised that if you applying for a course related to one of your A levels and your going to be interviewed if you apply after you have the results you going to be hopefully more knowledgable about the subject.
I shall watch other peoples views with interest.

Molio I queried only a week ago with DS's career dept does deferring reduce you chances of an offer and was told it doesn't make any difference providing it's not a subject like math/physics where a gap year in not really allowed.

HG I think that one of the disadvantages of not applying in Y13 would be to close down the option of going straight to university. I know a fair number of sixth formers who change their minds at least once about that during Y13 and even in the summer after.

Some schools don't seem to provide the same level of support for post Y13 applications so that might be an issue for somebody going through the system for the first time.
However as a parent I rather like the idea of post result applications with a bit more maturity to decide what they want to do.

One reason why I'm very much of the opinion that a Y13 application is always worthwhile is that post results applications are great for those who exceed their predictions but far less good for those who don't. Especially in an era of grade deflation, relying solely on a post results application is a strategy which can prove very flawed. The apply for deferred entry/ don't consideration is peripheral compared to that so despite stories of successful A Level candidates sailing through the process with minimal stress, I'd counsel caution. There really is very little to lose, since the process is not nearly so stressful for those intending deferred entry anyhow and if the application is put in in late Sept/ early Oct the student can forget about it pretty much until responses roll in. I'd certainly never ever have advised my DC to go through Y13 without at least testing the water. It's about £21 for the application processing fee and not that much effort to put together a personal statement, also a good dry run anyway.

-I'd agree with "post-results applications are great for those who exceed their predictions but far less good for those who don't."
-Also, if you are predicted say BBB then you might get offered a BBB course. If you drop a grade to, say, BBC then they might still let you in. If you apply post results (BBC) to a BBB course then they might not even offer. It's easier to blag your way in on predictions.
-If, conversely, results are better then predicted then you can go for Adjustment or pull out and re-apply in Y14 (iyswim).
-Also if you apply in Y13 and Y14 then you get two bites at the cherry, if necessary. Apply in Y14 and you only get one shot.
-What about interviews, Open Days etc? Easier to get time off school for these than to get time off paid work or to fly back from Thailand.
-A lot of other pupils will be applying in Y13. She might feel a bit out of the loop if she isn't also doing it. It's just easier to do Y13 applications eg getting school references.

Who would help do the personal statement if she is already out if school/college? If her school gives lots of assistance with this on this basis alone I would apply this year and then defer if that's still her choice. She can still use the statement next time around if she ditches all/any offers she gets in this cycle, and will have had the benefit of help with what seems to be quite an art!

I queried only a week ago with DS's career dept does deferring reduce you chances of an offer and was told it doesn't make any difference providing it's not a subject like math/physics where a gap year is not really allowed.

A minority of maths and physics students do take gap years. It is not particularly encouraged, as students forget a lot of maths, but it is too strong to say it is "not really allowed" (even at the top places). See for example pages 2 and 10 of

www.maths.cam.ac.uk/undergrad/admissions/guide.pdf

Many colleges discourage gap years unless students have a plan for something relevant to do, but a third of colleges are neutral to positive about gap years. Even colleges which are under the "discourage unless something relevant to do" category do have a few gap year maths students.

Outside the very top (three or four) places, maths and physics courses cannot afford to turn down well qualified applicants just because they want to do a gap year and requested deferred entry would make absolutely no difference to getting an offer.

For the original question I don't think her chances will be much different with predicted v actual grades except for the most competitive courses (which Bs typically won't get her into). I also don't think it would make a difference in getting offers if she asks upfront for her place to be deferred.

I'd agree with "post-results applications are great for those who exceed their predictions but far less good for those who don't."

Wouldnt necessarily agree. DS didnt get the results he wanted in year 13. He needed a AAA , he got A,C,D. not maths but a engineering which is very maths heavy, and also didnt get his insurance. He decided not to go through clearing so he went back to school to retake. This year he had an AAB offer from the same university who gave him an offer of AAA, even though their standard offer of A*AA hadnt changed and he got 3 other good offers from "good" universities and an unconditional from a lower university.

That wasn't really a post-results application though, was it - he is doing retakes so it is dependent on his Y14 grades.
But brilliant that he got lower asking grades this time round. Good luck to him!

It is a whole new application process with the unis knowing your results and retakes can be taken privately as ds has done (he has no funding but is a guest pupil)
Ds was not allowed to hold onto his offer but had to start all over again, and the unis didnt seem bothered about his existing results, although the A probably showed he was capable.
If you do badly in yr 13 you are going to have to take stock and decide what you are going to do.

We were also recently told that if you don't get you first choice in yr 13 you can reapply post results and you might be luckier the second time around, apparently you can also include in your application the university that on did offer you a place in yr 13 and they won't be annoyed that you turned down the place last year.
I don't think there's a black and white argument for either frankly perhaps a lot depends on the course, the university, the school your DC is at. I coming round to the view that I will follow the advise of the school who in our case have an extraordinary track record of success in university applications and so I have to assume know much more about this than I do.
Spinoa we were very clearly told by DS's school, a friends DD who's been very successful in her application for math and other mums with children who've been through the process that for math/physics universities like IC, Oxbridge etc do not like gap years unless your planning to work in a very physics/math related area not lying on a beach in Thailand (not that my DS will be doing that if he takes a gap year).

happygardening of course it's the best idea to rely on school advice when, as yours does, it has a very strong record of success with university applications. Some schools are not as good so that's where recent direct or reliable indirect experience is very helpful. But I think it's also fair to say that even the best sixth form advisers err on the cautious side, since they know they'll get seriously peed off parents if things go wrong - and that may be especially true in the private sector.

bruffin that's a great result, but of course we don't know much about his individual circumstances the first time around, or what he's predicted, or the type of school he was/ is at, or the uni in question. Obviously this particular uni wants him though! It's fair to say engineers are quite sought after as well - a good deal will depend on the subject, not just the institution. Very impressive that he was determined to re-take and not settle for the easy option.

The point is that every individual circumstance is different and the best place to get advice is to go to the university department itself.

Agree, though a university department is unlikely to give concrete advice on hypothetical circumstances for a future year. And although your own DS got a good offer his experience is very different to a number of DC I've known, who did less well second time around. For my remaining DC, I certainly wouldn't want them to risk waiting until Y14, in the hope that they'd be as fortunate if they missed their grades, even in any subject where universities are recruiting as opposed to selecting. But then perhaps I don't consider the process massively stressful, so it doesn't seem that there's a whole lot to lose.

Spinoa we were very clearly told by DS's school, a friends DD who's been very successful in her application for math and other mums with children who've been through the process that for math/physics universities like IC, Oxbridge etc do not like gap years unless your planning to work in a very physics/math related area not lying on a beach in Thailand (not that my DS will be doing that if he takes a gap year).

And I am an academic in maths/physics and see many students come through. What you write does not disagree with what I wrote above, but it is being very over-cautious to say that gap years are not allowed. Personally I encourage gap years where they are spent productively and would be happy to advise prospective maths/physics students on gap years.

A lot of universities encourage gap years now, it gives the kids some experience of the 'real world', and teaches them a bit about how different university is going to be.

Why not apply this year? That way your DD gets two goes at the application process, gains some experience, and if it doesn't work out this time, or she gets unexpected results, you can still reassess.

Helpuschoose I'd completely agree to do UCAS now and next year if necessary. DS was hopeless at choosing his courses, writing his statement and just making up his bloody mind. It was entirely the peer pressure of friends all doing the same thing at the same time that finally got him going and the nagging of teachers reviewing his statement that got the thing finally handed in. Now if he chooses to re-apply next year he will only need to tweak it. I can't imagine he'd have got to the point he is without being at school in Yr 12, where it was the only thing they talked about for weeks.

And apologies in advance for a bit of a sidetrack here.

Bruffin how is your ds finding retaking as an external student? Ds is planning this if he doesn't get into his first choice uni (and perhaps even if he does - lots of muttering about travelling
). I'm worried that without the motivation and structure of friends/ teachers/ revision sessions etc it would be very hard for ds to be disciplined enough to up his grades. How did your ds feel once lots of mates had gone on to exciting new places leaving him back home?

Haffdonga

Ds is still going to school as a guest and does not get funding. He is timetabled for physics, but self tutoring for further maths as they have changed the exam boards so different syllabus. He does go to some of the core maths classes to help out and they even let him teach a class and is retaking a core maths to get his A* but again due to new exam board is self tutoring.
He has also made a few new friends from students in the same situation as him, which has been good, but I do think it must have been difficult for him to see his friends going off to uni. His gf is on her 2nd year so he has been visiting her as well so has been sampling uni life .

His application was to his firm last year and 4 new unis and as said above got offers from all of them. A big shock though as even though his firm gave him a low offer he decided not to take it up and has firm and insured with somewhere else entirely. It came down to courses all similar, all good reputations so he decided he liked the city less than others. He was dithering until the night before UCAS closed and then got himself into a right state on who to choose. He is dyslexic and decision making is not his forte
He is much more focused this year and even sitting now revising and muttering something about binomials.
Molio
I am not saying dont apply for year 13, just having poor results in year 13 may not be the end of the world and the 5 unis ds applied to, didnt seem to think so either.

Thanks Bruffin . I hadn't realised there was a difference between being an unfunded 'guest' and being entirely external but the school letting you use them as your exam centre.

Good luck to all in their exams. I'll be bloody glad when it's over

I would expect they're pretty impressed by his determination in going back to school bruffin - that's quite something. But re-applying with poorer results than predicted in Y13 would be a different kettle entirely. Good luck to him (and to all, as Haffdonga says).

He did have poorer results than predicted in year 13, that why he had to retake.

Good luck to your ds Halfdonga.

Quite. But not all students would re-take like your DS bruffin, which is why deciding to apply only post results can be a gamble.

If you get poor results you wont make your offers and not get a place anyway in s year 13 application unless you get an unconditional, so it really doesnt make any difference unless you are prepared to retake.